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Fears of peace talks
Peace bad, war good!
Did I get that right?
Defending your home is good.
And that’s why you supported the breakaway republics?
Have you ever come by the term: wicked problem? Secession movements are a prime example of a wicked problem.
They are, but while wicked problems (what Bostonians call “math”) are very difficult to resolve to the satisfaction of everyone, some approaches are far worse than others.
Ukraine’s approach – failing to control the neo-Nazi paramilitaries in their midst, then allowing those paramilitaries to violate the Minsk agreements while running away from your largest neighbor and in to the arms of the U.S. empire, then skipping offramps in the lead up to the war and in its first months – was a particularly bad one.
can you hint me to some further reading?
On what, in particular?
failing to control the neo-Nazi paramilitaries in their midst, then allowing those paramilitaries to violate the Minsk agreements
This. The later parts I have read about.
The best way to defend your home is to stop the bombs from falling on it. Unless you’re not talking about people’s homes, families, and friends, but rather talking about some arbitrary line in the sand that people should be sent to die for.
Then why oh why aren’t you applying your reasoning to Russia? They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
If it’s all just pointless bloodshed over lines on a map, why isn’t Russia staying home? All they have to do to stop the deaths is go back.
They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
Why do you think Russia invaded, exactly ? they started the whole conflict after decades of making NATO encroachment along their borders a clear red line and being very clear what would happen if it was crossed
The US still kept meddling in Ukraine (and other post-soviet states), with Russia making every effort short of war to try and stop that - like offering loans just as large as the IMF loans for example, except without asking for the batshit insane austerity measures the latter did
Then the CIA backed a far-right coup there in 2014, and much of the following years were spent with NATO financing and training nazi soldiers there in preparation of trying to take back Crimea, while breaking the Minsk agreements in the meantime (I’ll pass on the various atrocities and huge reframing of nazi criminals as national heroes in Ukraine there at the same period, since it’s barely related, but it is worth a mention too)
Now both Ukrainian and Russian people are dying. A peace deal would stop that.
I wonder what part of this is supposed to justify Russia’s indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations
Lolyou think this is “indiscriminate”? Fuck, you should’ve zeen Fallujah or Vietnam or Korea. Ukraine has so much infrastructure and housing left in perfectly usable conditions. One of my major issues at the beginning was that I expected Russia to be much more violent and have been very surprised at how little of the violence has been on non-combatants
From what you wrote, do you have a major issue with, in your view, how little violence Russia has inflicted on civilians? Glad that you’re disappointed.
My point stands. All that blabber does not justify the acts of Russia.
Not being dead is even better.
So you just surrender and don’t have a home anymore/die anyways?
“die anyways” ? how so ?
I’m sorry I don’t have the time or willpower to explain history to you.
What a pretentious thing to say.
Lol ok
I would be so ashamed of actually posting this
Just don’t answer, it looks less ridiculous
and 
Very intelligent.
Why are you posting hex emojis outside of hexbear? You know that’s against hexbear rules.
And then you get raped and killed. Like glorious Russia has always done throughout your history.
Ok Adolf
Do you think Russia went to Ukraine and they sat down in a nice comfy living room with a fireplace and discussed one country handing everything they have over to the other?
No, I’m aware of the fact that there’s an actual war going on.
Fears of peace talks
What kind of bullshit Orwellian headline is this? Peace is GOOD, stopping the bloodshed is GOOD. We WANT less people to die.
The only reason I opened the article, “whatchu mean fear of peace talks?!”
Like I get it, Ukraine shouldn’t capitulate. But ending the bloodshed is a good thing, surely.
The issue is that we’ve already tried the whole peace thing before. Remember the Budapest Memorandum? The Minsk Protocol & Minsk II? The Partition & Friendship Treaties?
I feel like the heart of the issue is that Russia doesn’t want peace. If it did, we would not be here in the first place.
You mean the Minsk agreements Ukraine refused to implement for 8 years, and the west has now admitted were designed to buy time to arm Ukraine for the proxy war. Not really helping your case there bud.
…Ukraine refused to implement for 8 years, and the west has now admitted were designed to buy time to arm Ukraine for the proxy war
[citation needed]
can’t even be bothered to google? https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/12/22/ffci-d22.html
can’t even be bothered to google?
No, I’m invoking Hitchen’s Razor.
While I will concede the Minsk Agreement, there’s still the issue of the Partition Treaty, the Treaty of Friendship, and the Budapest Memorandum. All of which were meant to encode Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty.
Claiming there is no evidence for something that’s well documented is just flaunting your own ignorance. All of the treaties you mentioned were respected by Russia until US overthrew a democratically elected government in Ukraine in a violent coup. A fact that’s, once again, has been extensively documented in western media. It takes stunning amounts of intellectual dishonesty to ignore this and peddle your narrative.
The fear is that there is pressure for peace talk conditions to be less than fair to Ukraine, that this would be little more than appeasement of Russia, like what happened with Czechoslovakia in the 1930s
Ukraine was in a far better position when US and UK sabotaged peace talks last March, and Ukrainian position continues to deteriorate. So what exactly do you think delaying negotiations more is going to accomplish?
A real mask off moment there.
Somebody think of the Lockheed shareholders!
Russia has done horrible things to the Ukrainian people for a good century now. I hope the Ukraine doesn’t get pressured into giving its land and people over to Putin. Any deal needs to give Ukraine all its territory back, and for Russia to keep its military off their border.
What has Ukraine allowed to have happen to it’s ethnic Russian population comprising a significant portion of the east of Ukraine done during it’s time? You speak like a US state department underling. Whose office are you in exactly?
Are you making fun of someone for parroting US talking points, while yourself parroting Kremlin talking points?
Anything except being for using Ukraine to fight a US-Russia proxy war is a Kremlin talking point to state dept plants like yourself.
If it’s a proxy war, that means that Russia attacked Ukraine to get back at the US, not the other way around. This means it’s on Russia to stop the war, by giving back an innocent country’s land that they stole.
Try studying history and us involvement in the region. Instead gas lighting people like they don’t know why Russia invaded part of the country. What has the US and NATO done prior to 2014 to create stability and peace in the region. Jack shit, the opposite, and there were plenty of opportunities. Ukraine isn’t going to get its land back period.
Are you even aware of who invaded Ukraine and started the war?
That’s not an excuse to have a proxy war neocon.
Please upvote this comment if you are a liberal and this headline gave you pause and maybe a nagging “are we the baddies?” moment of reflection
Not upvoting as a diehard commie, just to respect the vote. Would love to see an actual poll of libs on this
And then I read the article and remembered: reality is more complicated then good-bad.
A sociopath told you that you aren’t capable of having moral judgements about people dying and that you needed to listen to vetted experts instead. It’s not complicated actually. I contend that pointless death is in fact a bad thing
And who or what desides if a death is pointless?
If you think there’s glory in these deaths then stop cheering from the backfield and take the place of someone gang pressed off the street.
Even if I would do that I suppose you wouldn’t be happier with the situation. And guess what, neither would I.
But that’s what you’re saying, right? These deaths are valuable just for the sake of fighting in some abstract sense? Because the bad guy is bad?
No, as I said in my first answer, there are no generally right or wrong answers. There are people dying because of some vanity project of the rich and powerful. I also hold the opinion, that those shall be prevented at all costs. But if my information on the conflict is correct and this war started as a civil war on the topic of secession, then the question get’s hard to answer almost instantly, and also highly individual.
I don’t believe this for one second. I haven’t heard anything from the Ukraine administration that would suggest in any way that they are interested in peace talks. In fact, their recent choice of putting a Crimean Tatar as the Minister of Defence suggests that they are serious about taking Crimea back from Russia. I hear nothing but absolute resolve by both the Weat and Ukraine to keep fighting until a Ukraine victory.
I hear nothing but absolute resolve by both the Weat and Ukraine to keep fighting until
a Ukraine victory.Until the last Ukrainian. That’s what I’ve heard too.
I know you people don’t consider Ukrainians actual humans with agency but they fight because they are forced to do so by Russians. And if they stopped fighting they would be eradicated by Russians. Whether the West wants them to resist Russia or not has no weight in that.
I’ve seen videos and articles that suggest that many Ukrainians fight because they are forced to do so by other Ukrainians. And what do you mean eradicated? Do you know of some secret extermination camp nobody else knows about?
Show proof of your bald-faced lie propagandist
It’s openly reported in western media ignoramus https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/02/26/ukraine-finds-stepping-up-mobilisation-is-not-so-easy
From your link:
Not all who get draft notices are actually inducted; sometimes the notices are simply a way to get every potential recruit on the books. Even for those who get one, there are ways of getting around it. There are legal exemptions for illness and disability—either of the draftee or of a dependant. Single parents and fathers with three or more children are off the hook as well. Students can defer service. Certain professions also receive what is known locally as bron, or protection from call-up.
The government has extended this to key workers in the energy, transport and agriculture sectors. Many IT staff have six-month exemptions. Alex, an IT professional who handles his company’s relations with the government, says the state understands how vital his sector has become to the war effort. “It’s one of the only areas of the economy still generating hard currency. Many of us are also working pro bono on military projects in AI, surveillance, counter-espionage and other classified technologies.”
From another economist article:
Ironically, though, Ukraine’s army is built on conscription as well. For years Ukrainian law has demanded 12 to 18 months of military service from Ukrainian men, even if many of them manage to postpone it through studies or parenthood (registering with a fake address is a popular trick to duck it entirely). The practice of conscription itself, like so much else about Ukraine, is a relic that it has tried to shed: when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, all its men had to complete at least three years of military service. Four of Ukraine’s last five elected presidents promised to abolish it. One succeeded in 2013, but it was reinstated the following year, after Russia began grabbing chunks of Ukrainian territory. Last month, just before the war started, Mr Zelensky proposed an end to conscription by early 2024.
Almost like it’s far more nuanced than “being forced to fight”. But you and your tanky buds will never admit that none of this would have to happen if Russia didn’t invade Ukraine in an unprovoked war of aggression
As to your buddy’s genocide denial, I’ll just leave this here
I love how you just keep peddling debunked nonsense here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8kt9RUpYqk
And no, it’s not more nuanced than being forced to fight, the regime in Ukraine is literally kidnapping people off the street and sending them to die on the front lines. Meanwhile, human garbage such as yourself keeps cheering that on. You are an utter scumbag.
If Ukraine enters peace talks now, have they gained anything or put their country in a better position since the original peace talks, which were sabotaged by Boris Johnson and British intelligence, over a year ago? Have they gained any significant territory since what was proposed then? Is their army in a stronger position? Are any gains since then worth the losses?
Just looking at it from a purely pragmatic and realpolitik perspective, I don’t see how anyone can argue that Ukraine has gained anything significant in this stalemate of a conflict. If they get similar results now, as what was on the table originally at the first peace talks, it means that their Western backers essentially sold a pipe dream to Ukraine that never materialised. Is the collective West ready to explain that to Ukraine, and the rest of the world? That they used Ukraine as a testbed for their weaponry against Russia, sold Ukraine a utopian fantasy that they’d be able to regain significant territory using Western weapons and tactics which never happened, and hundreds of tens to hundreds of thousands of people got killed or injured to accomplish very little.
havent they breach crimea lines? they are the offensive now so they could demand more.
They managed to partially capture a handful of villages in the security zone after three months. They are nowhere close to Crimea. The offensive had been a complete disaster and Russia has so far gained more territory in the north than Ukraine has in the south.
These Baltic and Polish dipshits should just be airdropped on to the frontlines if they want the war to continue so badly.
Without parachutes.
Yeah, along with the dipshits commenting from somewhere safe out in the West or whatever that never learn from history about appeasement that doesn’t work.
No one “wants the war to continue”. But “dipshits” from Poland and countries near Russia know that they will not stop there, and after Ukraine they’re next.
Hey, why don’t you go and sign up for the foreign legion instead of shitposting here while other people die.
Great, another Hexbear brigading thread. Hexbear needs to be defederated, it’s a bunch of fake communists spreading authoritarian propaganda.
cry ab it, oh wait you already are
The fake progressive right wing warmongers of lemmy sitting in their comfortable spaces from across the globe are going to be upset at the prospect of peace.
I wish all the westies cheering this war on would sign up for the foreign legion and go fight the orcs themselves.
No one is cheering for the war, no matter how many times you say it.
People may cheer for Ukrainian independence, or for their victories, but no one wants the war to continue. The war can end today, if only Russia decides to give back all the land they took by force, including Crimea.
You’re building a strawman.
Ukraine doesn’t have any independence, no matter how many times you say it. Ukraine has a puppet regime that’s throwing the people of Ukraine into a meat grinder so that US can fight a proxy war with Russia. Meanwhile the only straw man here is the whole RuSsIA CaN JuSt GivE AlL ThE LaND BacK as if that’s a realistic scenario. Russia is winning this war, and the west is losing. There is no situation where Russia just packs up and goes home now. The only question is how many people are going to die before this war ends and whether there is an Ukraine left at the end of it.
Anybody who supports continuation of this war is absolutely cheering for continued death of people of Ukraine and the destruction of their country.
Oh, Russia is winning this war? Is that why it didn’t end in their estimated 3 days? Is that why Prigozhin marched on the Kremlin? Is that why they’re asking North Korea for weapons now?
So much winning.
Imagine looking at what’s happening with Ukraine’s offensive and still not being able to understand that Russia is winning the war.
They’re a bunch of cold war boomers they don’t give a fuck about Ukrainians and they’re not progressive in the slightest.
It would probably be a good thing if there can be an end to conscripts killing conscripts.
It really depends. If Russia gets to keep territory it conquered, keep children it kidnapped, not pay for the destruction and murder it wrought, see sanctions lifted and proceed to immediately re-arm and continue on its path of indoctrinating children into becoming fascist warriors for the next round, I wouldn’t call that peace.
Sure, but that’s an expectation of demilitarization by nuclear powers, not a cessation of warfare.
Fears of peace talks
Seems like mask off moment. Now i will read the comments if i suspect the resident liberal warmongers are still on their lines.
EDIT: The condensed copium cloud over liberal posts is even denser than imagined, with multiple layers.
my thought as well.
How can anyone has fears of peace talks. jfc
