I think part of the problem is that while Linux software is constantly getting more user friendly, the average user is getting less knowledgeable about computers at just as fast of a rate. People even understanding the concept of files and folders doesn’t seem to be a given anymore.
This is an unfortunate truth. I occasionally teach a short course on basic computer networking with a short segment on Unix/Linux to students ranging from ages 18-25 and only about 1 or 2 out of every class of 20 even knows what an “operating system” is.
Everything mainstream is a black box corporate ecosystem these days. Kids learn how to use specific programs and mobile apps, but don’t learn anything about the OS or machine itself because everything is isolated and “just works”.
It’s a really weird spot to be in. We’re used to the older generations being bad with tech, but now it’s also the younger ones too.
You use an interesting example- personally, I feel like while files and folders have their place, I prefer they be part of the background and not presented to the user.
Take photos, for example. If I’m looking for pictures of my dog, I don’t want to go into the 2022 folder, then the August folder, then look through all those files, back out into 2022 then go into the September folder, etc. I just want to type ‘dog’. Or pick from a dropdown list of common tags, or anything other than digging through files and folders.
Yeah, I grew up in the 90s where schools and offices had physical filing cabinets full of folders and files. And in the late 90s when learning computers at school those same concepts were reinforced in the computer file system. So files and folders within the context of using a computer is ingrained and seems obvious to me.
But kids these days are born with iPads in their hand, they use Chromebooks in primary school, and all their photos are automatically saved to the cloud and immediately available on all their devices. How would they ever learn the concepts of filesystems? It’s not taught at school. It’s not relevant to anything they do.
It used to make me so frustrated (it’s a simple concept!) but now I get it. Maybe it’s not as obvious a paradigm as we thought. Maybe there are better ways of organising files (eg, tagging, keywords, filtering) that are more human. Or using namespacing (ns prefixes, curies). Or even using non-local universal identifiers (ipfs locators).
It makes me wonder if we might eventually even move away from hierarchical-directory based filesystems at the system level too.
I mean hierarchy is how we find any specific item in the real world though, so it seems like the best way to organize things on a computer. If I’m looking for a pair of scissors I know to go into my house, into my kitchen, into the drawer, and take the scissors. You can use tagging and things to search, but having that be the main way of accessing files will never be as reliable or repeatable as just looking where you know the file is.
Precisely- it’s a concept that is ingrained in people to the point where anyone who doesn’t understand it is viewed as lacking. However, it’s needless.
I don’t need to understand IP addressing subnet routing to go to a website. Why should I need to understand a file and folder structure to find an old tax document?
Part of the problem there is that we don’t teach people how to actually use computers, we teach how to use specific programs instead usually.
A few months back I saw a post somewhere about how “kids these days don’t know how to read an analog clock”. And it’s the exact same thing, you have to teach people how to use them. You don’t just innately know how to use these things we created.
I grew up in the 2000s and got taught how to read an analog clock in like the first year of school.
I remember me teacher made a clock face on paper with the two arms pinned on. I brought up my parents had a clock with ‘lines instead of numbers’ and she taught everyone roman numerals on the spot.
A lot of teachers are really underpaid and have a lot of students to worry about. And that’s on top of parents wanting to meddle in their kids education and schools trying to cram more into the same amount of time. So it’s not always possible for teachers to be able to teach everything they need to, let alone other useful things to know.
And well what I said in my original comment about people just expecting others to know things without bothering to teach them. Years ago I was expected to know how to sign my name in cursive when the school district that I was in cut cursive when I was in kindergarten. Thankfully I had a teacher who actually taught me how to later on but otherwise I wouldn’t have known.
I think part of the problem is that while Linux software is constantly getting more user friendly, the average user is getting less knowledgeable about computers at just as fast of a rate. People even understanding the concept of files and folders doesn’t seem to be a given anymore.
This is an unfortunate truth. I occasionally teach a short course on basic computer networking with a short segment on Unix/Linux to students ranging from ages 18-25 and only about 1 or 2 out of every class of 20 even knows what an “operating system” is.
Everything mainstream is a black box corporate ecosystem these days. Kids learn how to use specific programs and mobile apps, but don’t learn anything about the OS or machine itself because everything is isolated and “just works”.
It’s a really weird spot to be in. We’re used to the older generations being bad with tech, but now it’s also the younger ones too.
You use an interesting example- personally, I feel like while files and folders have their place, I prefer they be part of the background and not presented to the user. Take photos, for example. If I’m looking for pictures of my dog, I don’t want to go into the 2022 folder, then the August folder, then look through all those files, back out into 2022 then go into the September folder, etc. I just want to type ‘dog’. Or pick from a dropdown list of common tags, or anything other than digging through files and folders.
Yeah, I grew up in the 90s where schools and offices had physical filing cabinets full of folders and files. And in the late 90s when learning computers at school those same concepts were reinforced in the computer file system. So files and folders within the context of using a computer is ingrained and seems obvious to me.
But kids these days are born with iPads in their hand, they use Chromebooks in primary school, and all their photos are automatically saved to the cloud and immediately available on all their devices. How would they ever learn the concepts of filesystems? It’s not taught at school. It’s not relevant to anything they do.
It used to make me so frustrated (it’s a simple concept!) but now I get it. Maybe it’s not as obvious a paradigm as we thought. Maybe there are better ways of organising files (eg, tagging, keywords, filtering) that are more human. Or using namespacing (ns prefixes, curies). Or even using non-local universal identifiers (ipfs locators). It makes me wonder if we might eventually even move away from hierarchical-directory based filesystems at the system level too.
I mean hierarchy is how we find any specific item in the real world though, so it seems like the best way to organize things on a computer. If I’m looking for a pair of scissors I know to go into my house, into my kitchen, into the drawer, and take the scissors. You can use tagging and things to search, but having that be the main way of accessing files will never be as reliable or repeatable as just looking where you know the file is.
Precisely- it’s a concept that is ingrained in people to the point where anyone who doesn’t understand it is viewed as lacking. However, it’s needless.
I don’t need to understand IP addressing subnet routing to go to a website. Why should I need to understand a file and folder structure to find an old tax document?
That’s more depressing than I can handle
Part of the problem there is that we don’t teach people how to actually use computers, we teach how to use specific programs instead usually.
A few months back I saw a post somewhere about how “kids these days don’t know how to read an analog clock”. And it’s the exact same thing, you have to teach people how to use them. You don’t just innately know how to use these things we created.
I grew up in the 2000s and got taught how to read an analog clock in like the first year of school.
I remember me teacher made a clock face on paper with the two arms pinned on. I brought up my parents had a clock with ‘lines instead of numbers’ and she taught everyone roman numerals on the spot.
What are teachers doing nowadays?
A lot of teachers are really underpaid and have a lot of students to worry about. And that’s on top of parents wanting to meddle in their kids education and schools trying to cram more into the same amount of time. So it’s not always possible for teachers to be able to teach everything they need to, let alone other useful things to know.
And well what I said in my original comment about people just expecting others to know things without bothering to teach them. Years ago I was expected to know how to sign my name in cursive when the school district that I was in cut cursive when I was in kindergarten. Thankfully I had a teacher who actually taught me how to later on but otherwise I wouldn’t have known.
When i sign my name i just write the first letter and do a fancy squiggle. Works everytime. lol
Yes, exactly. Phones and tablets have resulted in intro to comp sci instructors having to teach young people how a filesystem works.
What was that famous saying again? Something about developers making things idiot -proof and the universe producing bigger idiots?