I’m saying if you don’t vote, then politicians have no reason to try and win your vote, they will instead try to win the vote of people who do vote, like Zionists.
And then since there is no option for your vote, even not casting it, that is decidedly pro Palestine, then the obvious best course of action is to vote for the least pro-iseael candidate. This also in theory gives incentive for the more pro-iseael party to shift to try and win more votes and opens room for a more pro Palestinian position on the other side.
If you actually care about the lives of Palestinian people and don’t just want to use them as a political chess piece, then this is the obvious course of action.
This is ridiculous. Just try thinking about this for second. You are saying that if the people demand something, and the politicians on both sides of the aisle don’t want to give it to them, it’s the people’s fault.
At this point, you have to admit that the politicians represent elite interests and not the people. How in the world could any other conclusion be valid? And if that’s the case, and people realize this, then literally the outcome will be the same whether you vote or don’t vote.
Listen, you’re all about harm reduction right? You think Trump made things worse. Let’s analyze that. Let’s compare Trump and Obama. Trump launched a war against Iran and he lost. Obama launched a war against Libya and turned it into an open-air slave market. Net net, Trump did less harm to Iran than Obama did to Libya. On deportations, Trump has deported 1.5M people so far. Obama deported 3M. Net net, Trump did less harm via deportation than Obama did.
So when we look at Palestine, and we see that the US hasn’t actually engaged directly in Palestine but rather Israel has done all of the work, what are we to conclude? That somehow Trump has made Palestine worse? I think Trump is incompetent, ignorant, and aloof. He doesn’t care what happens and he’s not really engaged. It’s Israel doing the harm in Palestine. In this way, blaming Trump for the conditions in Palestine is like blaming the president for a drought. It’s not in his control.
No. The conclusion is not “you should vote for genocide if you don’t want genocide to prove to the genocidaires that you’re still willing to vote for them even if they engage in genocide because otherwise they have no incentive to stop genocide”. That’s so clearly and obviously ridiculous it’s a wonder you’re willing to even say it. The conclusion is that your vote doesn’t matter because the empire is going to do whatever it needs to do to maintain its power and voting is impotent to change those things.
This is ridiculous. Just try thinking about this for second. You are saying that if the people demand something, and the politicians on both sides of the aisle don’t want to give it to them, it’s the people’s fault.
It’s a democracy and primaries exist. If “the people” vote for a shitty candidate in the primaries, then that’s on them.
You’re acting as if the pro Palestine position is near universal and the democrats are just saying no for no reason (or corruption/malice whatever) but the reality is most of the voter base either doesn’t give a shit about Palestine or is probably Israel.
And that’s kind of my whole point. Those people vote, so if pro Palestine people don’t vote then you don’t get prop Palestine candidates, so it’s a self fulfilling prophecy.
Yes politicians overwhelmingly represent corporate interests, but acting like there is 0 political pressure from actual voters is nonsense. Not voting is giving tacit approval for the politicians to only care about the ekete or the other side.
Trump didn’t run against Obama.
we see that the US hasn’t actually engaged directly in Palestine but rather Israel has done all of the work
So that applied to Biden too?
you should vote for genocide
And now you’re back to claiming the US is responsible for the genocide.
It’s a democracy and primaries exist. If “the people” vote for a shitty candidate in the primaries, then that’s on them.
Victim blaming. The entire primary process is, like every other structure in the country, designed by the elite to maintain their power. It’s been that way since the founding. The goal is the image of legitimacy and disempowerment of the masses.
You’re acting as if the pro Palestine position is near universal and the democrats are just saying no for no reason (or corruption/malice whatever) but the reality is most of the voter base either doesn’t give a shit about Palestine or is probably Israel.
So you’re saying that if the majority of voters want genocide, then that’s the position the Ds should hold, and those of us opposed should just suck it up and vote for them because if we don’t… their opponents will win… Do you realize what you’re even saying?
And that’s kind of my whole point. Those people vote, so if pro Palestine people don’t vote then you don’t get prop Palestine candidates, so it’s a self fulfilling prophecy.
Almost like voting doesn’t matter because what’s going to happen is whatever the elite ruling class wants to happen.
Yes politicians overwhelmingly represent corporate interests, but acting like there is 0 political pressure from actual voters is nonsense. Not voting is giving tacit approval for the politicians to only care about the ekete or the other side.
In a different thread we discussed the changes that occurred in the country’s past. Women’s suffrage came up. It’s pretty obvious that women got the vote by applying pressure outside the ballot box. The same is true for civil rights. Nixon had to give ground on civil rights because of what was happening outside the ballot box, not inside. In fact, he and his administration deliberately disenfranchised people through the war on drugs (which every single subsequent administration enhanced). Because it turns out that they control how the voting system works.
Trump didn’t run against Obama.
Then perhaps you’re not paying attention to the point, which is that the party affiliation doesn’t reduce harm, and that people who believe in the goodness of Ds deliberately ignore the immense harm Ds have done and continue to do.
we see that the US hasn’t actually engaged directly in Palestine but rather Israel has done all of the work
So that applied to Biden too?
Yes, Biden didn’t engage directly in Palestine. Israel did all the work. Both Trump and Biden, both Ds and Rs in Congress, participate merely by sending more and more weapons, money, and training to Israel regardless of what they do. Biden openly supported the genocide, Trump openly supported the genocide. No harm was reduced nor increased based on voting.
And now you’re back to claiming the US is responsible for the genocide.
The US is responsible for genocide because they have provided unending support for Israel regardless of their actions. Trump didn’t make it worse, Biden didn’t make it better. The fact that you can’t see this makes it look like you’re just interested in attaching your favorite brand to an issue that people care deeply about in order to win points.
So how did people that go against what the elites want get into power?
I’m saying that’s how a democracy works you fucking idiot, if the majority of voters feel strongly about something politicians will promise it to secure their votes. Please for the love of god read a book.
Unless you vote for someone in the primary that shares your views.
Yet a fucking gain, you are pushing your dumb fucking false dichotomy that because activism works that means voting is pointless. You seem physically incapable of not seeing the world in black and white. You are as dumb as every right wing Trump voter I’ve ever spoken to.
It does reduce harm. As I’ve mentioned Trump stripped healthcare from 1.6m Americans, that is harm that wouldn’t have happened if he didn’t get elected. And your only answer to it was that democrats didn’t magically make it impossible to do that before he did it. Because you don’t seem to understand basic civics.
There was, Biden didn’t do much but he did pressure Netanyahu on Palestine, he witheld some military aid over Yahu’s invasion of Rafah, he also dropped aid and supplies into Gaza and pushed for the construction of the floating dock. Yes, it wasnt enough but it’s more than what Trump ever did and that’s the point.
If a democrat being elected stops even a single bomb, then it’s worth doing. That’s the point and you have no argument against that besides doing mental gymnastics to try and blame Obama for everything bad Trump has done (a typical MAGA tactic btw) or just saying “nuh uh they’re literally exactly the same” even though you’ve already admitted that voting changes things.
Biden did make it better and trump did make it worse. The whole pointless fucking war with Iran, the invasion of Lebanon are fucking proof of that. But again you don’t give a shit about these people. So much so that you’re ignoring everyone I bring it up.
Literally all you care about is feeling good about yourself. You willfully ignorant of any reality that doesn’t feed your superiority complex and you are just simply a shitty human being.
So how did people that go against what the elites want get into power?
You mean a handful of representatives and handful of senators? It’s called tokenization and appeasement.
I’m saying that’s how a democracy works you fucking idiot, if the majority of voters feel strongly about something politicians will promise it to secure their votes. Please for the love of god read a book.
That’s what I’ve been asking you to do. Because you’re empirically wrong. Princeton did a huge report on this. It is not the case that when the majority of voters feel strongly about something politicians will DO anything about it. Sure they’ll promise it, but the promises empirically have no follow through.
Instead, consistently what we have seen is when a minority of people are willing to disrupt life, THAT’S when politicians will actually do something. Again, Richard Nixon did absolutely nothing because the voters wanted it. He was forced by the violence on the ground by a minority of activists to give them concessions. And then to DOUBLY PROVE that voting isn’t the path, he then disenfranchised entire generations of people by launching the war on drugs, criminalizing cannabis and heroin specifically to target the people who were gaining traction, and every single president and congress after him supported the program.
Women’s suffrage was never earned by a majority of people voting. They couldn’t even vote. The fact that they got suffrage flies directly in the face of your point that people who didn’t vote Harris because of genocide demonstrated that because they won’t vote then the party can ignore them. I mean, it’s so obvious how contradictory your position is. Your cognitive dissonance is really fucking with your ability to reason.
Yet a fucking gain, you are pushing your dumb fucking false dichotomy that because activism works that means voting is pointless
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that voting is pointless and you try to gave examples of how voting wasn’t pointless and I showed how every single one of them was due to activism, and then showed the women’s suffrage was the proof that voting wasn’t even needed. Activism is both necessary and sufficient. Voting, empirically, is neither necessary nor sufficient.
If a democrat being elected stops even a single bomb, then it’s worth doing.
Again, I don’t actually think there’s cause and effect here. The military is driven by the bi-partisan consensus of global dominance. It’s absolutely true that under Biden fewer bombs were dropped. But it’s not reasonable to conclude from a single data point that this means Democrats reduce bomb droppings. None of the historical data supports it. Hell, the Democrats ran Operation Paperclip! There is no evidence that Democrats drop less bombs and insisting that just because for one term it was true then that means it will always be true doesn’t make any sense.
And again, using this logic, Trump is deporting fewer people than Obama did so he represents harm reduction. I know you don’t want to agree to that, I don’t want to agree to it either. My point is not to say that Trump is or isn’t harm reduction but that the strategy of lesser evil voting is both morally and logically bankrupt.
The whole pointless fucking war with Iran, the invasion of Lebanon are fucking proof of that
Again, you can’t use Biden’s exceptional presidency as proof when all historical proof refutes you. What Trump has done in Iran is far less damaging than what Obama and Hillary did in Libya, but Clinton did in Yugoslavia, what Truman did in Korea, what Johnson did in Vietnam. You have got to stop pretending that history started in 2020.
As I’ve mentioned Trump stripped healthcare from 1.6m Americans, that is harm that wouldn’t have happened if he didn’t get elected
So I was mistaken about this. I thought you were referring to the end of federal subsidies for the ACA. What you’re actually talking about is the defunding of Medicaid. The defunding of Medicaid was indeed a classic Republican pattern of reducing entitlements (with some exceptions) and reducing entitlements generally always causes harm. Yes. This is a valid point, that voting for Ds, generally speaking will expand entitlements and social safety nets. They tend to cock it up a lot, like they did by promising single payer and then abandoning the will of the voters and creating the ACA, but this form of harm reduction is true.
It’s not enough for me to say that we should vote for genocidaires so long as they expand our entitlements at home. It used to be when I was younger and didn’t understand the role the US plays in the world. It’s not anymore. If they want my vote, they’re going to have to reduce the military, reduce the prisons, and end support for Israel.
Way to not engage with any of the other content in the comment including the empirical evidence and focusing on your shallow understanding of the world to assert that it’s me acting in bad faith.
I’m saying if you don’t vote, then politicians have no reason to try and win your vote, they will instead try to win the vote of people who do vote, like Zionists.
And then since there is no option for your vote, even not casting it, that is decidedly pro Palestine, then the obvious best course of action is to vote for the least pro-iseael candidate. This also in theory gives incentive for the more pro-iseael party to shift to try and win more votes and opens room for a more pro Palestinian position on the other side.
If you actually care about the lives of Palestinian people and don’t just want to use them as a political chess piece, then this is the obvious course of action.
This is ridiculous. Just try thinking about this for second. You are saying that if the people demand something, and the politicians on both sides of the aisle don’t want to give it to them, it’s the people’s fault.
At this point, you have to admit that the politicians represent elite interests and not the people. How in the world could any other conclusion be valid? And if that’s the case, and people realize this, then literally the outcome will be the same whether you vote or don’t vote.
Listen, you’re all about harm reduction right? You think Trump made things worse. Let’s analyze that. Let’s compare Trump and Obama. Trump launched a war against Iran and he lost. Obama launched a war against Libya and turned it into an open-air slave market. Net net, Trump did less harm to Iran than Obama did to Libya. On deportations, Trump has deported 1.5M people so far. Obama deported 3M. Net net, Trump did less harm via deportation than Obama did.
So when we look at Palestine, and we see that the US hasn’t actually engaged directly in Palestine but rather Israel has done all of the work, what are we to conclude? That somehow Trump has made Palestine worse? I think Trump is incompetent, ignorant, and aloof. He doesn’t care what happens and he’s not really engaged. It’s Israel doing the harm in Palestine. In this way, blaming Trump for the conditions in Palestine is like blaming the president for a drought. It’s not in his control.
No. The conclusion is not “you should vote for genocide if you don’t want genocide to prove to the genocidaires that you’re still willing to vote for them even if they engage in genocide because otherwise they have no incentive to stop genocide”. That’s so clearly and obviously ridiculous it’s a wonder you’re willing to even say it. The conclusion is that your vote doesn’t matter because the empire is going to do whatever it needs to do to maintain its power and voting is impotent to change those things.
It’s a democracy and primaries exist. If “the people” vote for a shitty candidate in the primaries, then that’s on them.
You’re acting as if the pro Palestine position is near universal and the democrats are just saying no for no reason (or corruption/malice whatever) but the reality is most of the voter base either doesn’t give a shit about Palestine or is probably Israel.
And that’s kind of my whole point. Those people vote, so if pro Palestine people don’t vote then you don’t get prop Palestine candidates, so it’s a self fulfilling prophecy.
Yes politicians overwhelmingly represent corporate interests, but acting like there is 0 political pressure from actual voters is nonsense. Not voting is giving tacit approval for the politicians to only care about the ekete or the other side.
Trump didn’t run against Obama.
So that applied to Biden too?
And now you’re back to claiming the US is responsible for the genocide.
You’re starting to sound like a MAGA.
Victim blaming. The entire primary process is, like every other structure in the country, designed by the elite to maintain their power. It’s been that way since the founding. The goal is the image of legitimacy and disempowerment of the masses.
So you’re saying that if the majority of voters want genocide, then that’s the position the Ds should hold, and those of us opposed should just suck it up and vote for them because if we don’t… their opponents will win… Do you realize what you’re even saying?
Almost like voting doesn’t matter because what’s going to happen is whatever the elite ruling class wants to happen.
In a different thread we discussed the changes that occurred in the country’s past. Women’s suffrage came up. It’s pretty obvious that women got the vote by applying pressure outside the ballot box. The same is true for civil rights. Nixon had to give ground on civil rights because of what was happening outside the ballot box, not inside. In fact, he and his administration deliberately disenfranchised people through the war on drugs (which every single subsequent administration enhanced). Because it turns out that they control how the voting system works.
Then perhaps you’re not paying attention to the point, which is that the party affiliation doesn’t reduce harm, and that people who believe in the goodness of Ds deliberately ignore the immense harm Ds have done and continue to do.
Yes, Biden didn’t engage directly in Palestine. Israel did all the work. Both Trump and Biden, both Ds and Rs in Congress, participate merely by sending more and more weapons, money, and training to Israel regardless of what they do. Biden openly supported the genocide, Trump openly supported the genocide. No harm was reduced nor increased based on voting.
The US is responsible for genocide because they have provided unending support for Israel regardless of their actions. Trump didn’t make it worse, Biden didn’t make it better. The fact that you can’t see this makes it look like you’re just interested in attaching your favorite brand to an issue that people care deeply about in order to win points.
Such a thought terminating cliche.
So how did people that go against what the elites want get into power?
I’m saying that’s how a democracy works you fucking idiot, if the majority of voters feel strongly about something politicians will promise it to secure their votes. Please for the love of god read a book.
Unless you vote for someone in the primary that shares your views.
Yet a fucking gain, you are pushing your dumb fucking false dichotomy that because activism works that means voting is pointless. You seem physically incapable of not seeing the world in black and white. You are as dumb as every right wing Trump voter I’ve ever spoken to.
It does reduce harm. As I’ve mentioned Trump stripped healthcare from 1.6m Americans, that is harm that wouldn’t have happened if he didn’t get elected. And your only answer to it was that democrats didn’t magically make it impossible to do that before he did it. Because you don’t seem to understand basic civics.
There was, Biden didn’t do much but he did pressure Netanyahu on Palestine, he witheld some military aid over Yahu’s invasion of Rafah, he also dropped aid and supplies into Gaza and pushed for the construction of the floating dock. Yes, it wasnt enough but it’s more than what Trump ever did and that’s the point.
If a democrat being elected stops even a single bomb, then it’s worth doing. That’s the point and you have no argument against that besides doing mental gymnastics to try and blame Obama for everything bad Trump has done (a typical MAGA tactic btw) or just saying “nuh uh they’re literally exactly the same” even though you’ve already admitted that voting changes things.
Biden did make it better and trump did make it worse. The whole pointless fucking war with Iran, the invasion of Lebanon are fucking proof of that. But again you don’t give a shit about these people. So much so that you’re ignoring everyone I bring it up.
Literally all you care about is feeling good about yourself. You willfully ignorant of any reality that doesn’t feed your superiority complex and you are just simply a shitty human being.
You mean a handful of representatives and handful of senators? It’s called tokenization and appeasement.
That’s what I’ve been asking you to do. Because you’re empirically wrong. Princeton did a huge report on this. It is not the case that when the majority of voters feel strongly about something politicians will DO anything about it. Sure they’ll promise it, but the promises empirically have no follow through.
Instead, consistently what we have seen is when a minority of people are willing to disrupt life, THAT’S when politicians will actually do something. Again, Richard Nixon did absolutely nothing because the voters wanted it. He was forced by the violence on the ground by a minority of activists to give them concessions. And then to DOUBLY PROVE that voting isn’t the path, he then disenfranchised entire generations of people by launching the war on drugs, criminalizing cannabis and heroin specifically to target the people who were gaining traction, and every single president and congress after him supported the program.
Women’s suffrage was never earned by a majority of people voting. They couldn’t even vote. The fact that they got suffrage flies directly in the face of your point that people who didn’t vote Harris because of genocide demonstrated that because they won’t vote then the party can ignore them. I mean, it’s so obvious how contradictory your position is. Your cognitive dissonance is really fucking with your ability to reason.
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that voting is pointless and you try to gave examples of how voting wasn’t pointless and I showed how every single one of them was due to activism, and then showed the women’s suffrage was the proof that voting wasn’t even needed. Activism is both necessary and sufficient. Voting, empirically, is neither necessary nor sufficient.
Again, I don’t actually think there’s cause and effect here. The military is driven by the bi-partisan consensus of global dominance. It’s absolutely true that under Biden fewer bombs were dropped. But it’s not reasonable to conclude from a single data point that this means Democrats reduce bomb droppings. None of the historical data supports it. Hell, the Democrats ran Operation Paperclip! There is no evidence that Democrats drop less bombs and insisting that just because for one term it was true then that means it will always be true doesn’t make any sense.
And again, using this logic, Trump is deporting fewer people than Obama did so he represents harm reduction. I know you don’t want to agree to that, I don’t want to agree to it either. My point is not to say that Trump is or isn’t harm reduction but that the strategy of lesser evil voting is both morally and logically bankrupt.
Again, you can’t use Biden’s exceptional presidency as proof when all historical proof refutes you. What Trump has done in Iran is far less damaging than what Obama and Hillary did in Libya, but Clinton did in Yugoslavia, what Truman did in Korea, what Johnson did in Vietnam. You have got to stop pretending that history started in 2020.
So I was mistaken about this. I thought you were referring to the end of federal subsidies for the ACA. What you’re actually talking about is the defunding of Medicaid. The defunding of Medicaid was indeed a classic Republican pattern of reducing entitlements (with some exceptions) and reducing entitlements generally always causes harm. Yes. This is a valid point, that voting for Ds, generally speaking will expand entitlements and social safety nets. They tend to cock it up a lot, like they did by promising single payer and then abandoning the will of the voters and creating the ACA, but this form of harm reduction is true.
It’s not enough for me to say that we should vote for genocidaires so long as they expand our entitlements at home. It used to be when I was younger and didn’t understand the role the US plays in the world. It’s not anymore. If they want my vote, they’re going to have to reduce the military, reduce the prisons, and end support for Israel.
Ah classic “yes you proved my entire point wrong with your examples, but they don’t count because I said so”
Literally just maga but with different talking points, lmao.
Way to not engage with any of the other content in the comment including the empirical evidence and focusing on your shallow understanding of the world to assert that it’s me acting in bad faith.
Because you just keep pretending I’m arguing something I’m not and pushing the idea that activism working means voting doesn’t.
Also you’ve already said you agree with me, so there’s no point addressing any of your other nonsense. Sorry I’m not going to “debate” you any more.