and yes, it has worked in the US to give workers better wages, and famously the right for workers to have a weekend and the 8hour-maximum workday. entrism on the other hand never did much of anything.
… HAH. No… just, no. That’s not what centrism is, and that’s NOT the story of how we got the 8 hour workday.
We have (or in some cases had) the 8 hour workday, OSHA, social security, legally protected unions, etc as a result of the New Deal.
What was the New Deal?
Well, an extremely progressive “centrist” (your words, not mine) - Frankin Delano Roosevelt - ran for President, and won. He took over the Presidency in the depths of the Great Depression, and Democrats attained majority in both chambers of congress.
They gained complete political power largely because Republican policies had sent the United States into an economic nosedive. They also gained unprecedented political capital for progressive policies by grassroots support in response to the horrifying economic conditions all across the United States.
Sound familiar?
He - alongside Congress - passed a whole bunch of legislation, created a whole bunch of federal agencies, and forced through massive leaps forward in labor protections and social welfare programs.
the new deal came about because of socialist pressure. thats also why it ain’t happening again, because there are barely any socialists in the us anymore.
grassroots support in response to the horrifying economic conditions
who was supporting grassroots work reform? thats right, the socialists. under the threat of violence. saying it was simply “grassroots support” whitewashes all the blood spilled to make it happen. it wasnt given by benevolent capitalists.
“centrist” (your words, not mine) - Frankin Delano Roosevelt
i literally said nothing about roosevelt or centrism in any of my responses to you. putting words in my mouth.
you are the one who should read a book, preferrably something not whitewashed by the CIA or something, cause holy shit.
You’re absolutely right - the New Deal was possible because:
They also gained unprecedented political capital for progressive policies by grassroots support in response to the horrifying economic conditions all across the United States.
That is in fact the grassroots support I’m talking about, thanks.
How do you think we had a Congress and a President who were willing to listen to those grassroots movements?
That’s right - Americans elected a whole bunch of people like the candidate in this article.
since you are repeating yourself ill take the liberty to do so myself:
saying it was simply “grassroots support” whitewashes all the blood spilled to make it happen. it wasnt given by benevolent capitalists.
socialist blood. the candidate in your article will fade into irrelevancy because there isn’t a mass leftist movement to support radical change like there was back then.
if there was enough of a movement, you can bet you could force trump himself into passing progressive laws. no need for specific candidates to vote for.
I genuinely do agree that we do not have the same party or candidates or support as we did in the 1930s. I genuinely agree that we need systematic change, or any progress we make will only be undone within a century, like last time.
But they didn’t have that party, those candidates, or that support in the 1920s. The Great Depression changed everything.
Violence alone did not make it happen. And lol no, the current Republican Party would absolutely let the United States collapse into civil war before they passed anything like the New Deal. You know, like… the, American Civil War.
Referring to progressive movements in the 1930s as “grassroots” doesn’t fucking whitewash anything. Socialists weren’t alone in the 1930s, and socialism didn’t have anywhere close to enough support in the 1920s to get the New Deal passed.
They elected the people who made the difference. It wasn’t “benevolent capitalists” that gave us the New Deal - it was people voting for change. Real change, not the half-assed shit we talk about these days.
I wish we could skip over the terrible economic suffering that pushed Americans in that direction, but it probably will happen all over again.
Your socialist movement is possible. We’re walking into all the conditions required to make it happen. And here you are, claiming that you have no use for the exact type of people you need to see it through.
violence is one of the tools at our disposal, the threat of the upending of the status quo is what did it. that comes from leftists, not politicians or institutionalism.
the institutions are there to uphold the status quo, regardless of the good people that might be elected. it also explains why the trump admin is dismantling them, he wants to break the status quo for something else.
The last time the status quo was truly threatened, the South started a war. The Republican Party would do the same thing today.
Plenty of socialists et al were threatening the status quo in the 1920s. The Republicans didn’t listen. But the Great Depression itself upended the status quo, and made Americans willing to do anything to make it stop.
That lead to Democrats gaining complete control, and it lead to Democrats being persuaded to actually use that control to enact real change. Yes, part of that persuasion was absolutely intimidation. Much of that intimidation was bought with the blood of leftists.
The same exact conditions are precipitating now. The United States has had its tariffs and its deregulations and its tax cuts and its spending cuts. The stock market points wherever the fuck it wants, but the actual economy is pointing straight down.
And I completely agree that the solution isn’t “let the Democrats fix it”. Far from it.
But the solution certainly doesn’t involve opposition to the type of electoral candidates that would help fix things, like a 26 year old who seems genuinely interested in helping people.
yes. socialism. they were starting to demand socialism. no wonder new deal policies were heavily inspired by soviet policies.
the great depression was nothing more than a top-heavy deregulated capitalism crashing. exactly as predicted by marx. neoliberalism has risen to replace traditional capitalism, because us people bought the new deal as a compromise instead of deposing the capitalists.
bringing us right back to a similar conundrum now.
Lol ok. I am aware that they started to demand socialism. We are saying the exact same thing there.
Where we disagree is where you’re pessimistic in claiming that:
the candidate in your article will fade into irrelevancy because there isn’t a mass leftist movement to support radical change like there was back then.
I am optimistic in claiming that:
Your socialist movement is possible. We’re walking into all the conditions required to make it happen.
I get the desire to reduce an extremely complex situation into simple answers. But the New Deal wasn’t just a compromise. The New Deal was an incredible leap forward for labor. And we didn’t completely stop - and later regress - just because we had reached a compromise. Republicans had regained control in the late 1930s, and Americans would have witnessed in real time as their amazing economic growth completely faltered. But that didn’t happen.
We regressed so dramatically because the Second World War gave us economic hegemony that allowed the US to flourish without actually doing anything to deserve it.
Neoliberalism and laissez faire capitalism would never have achieved such popularity in the modern day if not for the fact that the US economy was so strong following the New Deal and the wartime boost, and if the global economy hadn’t just been completely eviscerated.
These policies would have failed much sooner and much more obviously. But full-on Middle Ages Feudalism would have been popular for an entire generation of Baby Boomers, as long as a feudalistic United States was the last major industrial nation standing in the ashes of the 1940s.
The New Deal was socialism in action. To claim it was nothing but a compromise is what actually whitewashes all of the blood spilled to make it happen. We still benefit from the legacy of the New Deal, and we are actively fighting over its legacy as we speak.
The United States could have kept moving in that direction. The United States can move in that direction again. If you won’t support electoral candidates that can help make that happen, the least you could do is get out of the fucking way.
Go oppose electoral candidates that are diametrically opposed to socialism.
… HAH. No… just, no. That’s not what centrism is, and that’s NOT the story of how we got the 8 hour workday.
We have (or in some cases had) the 8 hour workday, OSHA, social security, legally protected unions, etc as a result of the New Deal.
What was the New Deal?
Well, an extremely progressive “centrist” (your words, not mine) - Frankin Delano Roosevelt - ran for President, and won. He took over the Presidency in the depths of the Great Depression, and Democrats attained majority in both chambers of congress.
They gained complete political power largely because Republican policies had sent the United States into an economic nosedive. They also gained unprecedented political capital for progressive policies by grassroots support in response to the horrifying economic conditions all across the United States.
Sound familiar?
He - alongside Congress - passed a whole bunch of legislation, created a whole bunch of federal agencies, and forced through massive leaps forward in labor protections and social welfare programs.
That’s why you have the 8 hour workday.
Read a book.
the new deal came about because of socialist pressure. thats also why it ain’t happening again, because there are barely any socialists in the us anymore.
who was supporting grassroots work reform? thats right, the socialists. under the threat of violence. saying it was simply “grassroots support” whitewashes all the blood spilled to make it happen. it wasnt given by benevolent capitalists.
i literally said nothing about roosevelt or centrism in any of my responses to you. putting words in my mouth.
you are the one who should read a book, preferrably something not whitewashed by the CIA or something, cause holy shit.
You’re absolutely right - the New Deal was possible because:
That is in fact the grassroots support I’m talking about, thanks.
How do you think we had a Congress and a President who were willing to listen to those grassroots movements?
That’s right - Americans elected a whole bunch of people like the candidate in this article.
The one you claimed we “have no use for.”
who are you quoting again?
since you are repeating yourself ill take the liberty to do so myself:
socialist blood. the candidate in your article will fade into irrelevancy because there isn’t a mass leftist movement to support radical change like there was back then.
if there was enough of a movement, you can bet you could force trump himself into passing progressive laws. no need for specific candidates to vote for.
My friend, you’ve gone too deep.
I genuinely do agree that we do not have the same party or candidates or support as we did in the 1930s. I genuinely agree that we need systematic change, or any progress we make will only be undone within a century, like last time.
But they didn’t have that party, those candidates, or that support in the 1920s. The Great Depression changed everything.
Violence alone did not make it happen. And lol no, the current Republican Party would absolutely let the United States collapse into civil war before they passed anything like the New Deal. You know, like… the, American Civil War.
Referring to progressive movements in the 1930s as “grassroots” doesn’t fucking whitewash anything. Socialists weren’t alone in the 1930s, and socialism didn’t have anywhere close to enough support in the 1920s to get the New Deal passed.
They elected the people who made the difference. It wasn’t “benevolent capitalists” that gave us the New Deal - it was people voting for change. Real change, not the half-assed shit we talk about these days.
I wish we could skip over the terrible economic suffering that pushed Americans in that direction, but it probably will happen all over again.
Your socialist movement is possible. We’re walking into all the conditions required to make it happen. And here you are, claiming that you have no use for the exact type of people you need to see it through.
violence is one of the tools at our disposal, the threat of the upending of the status quo is what did it. that comes from leftists, not politicians or institutionalism.
the institutions are there to uphold the status quo, regardless of the good people that might be elected. it also explains why the trump admin is dismantling them, he wants to break the status quo for something else.
The last time the status quo was truly threatened, the South started a war. The Republican Party would do the same thing today.
Plenty of socialists et al were threatening the status quo in the 1920s. The Republicans didn’t listen. But the Great Depression itself upended the status quo, and made Americans willing to do anything to make it stop.
That lead to Democrats gaining complete control, and it lead to Democrats being persuaded to actually use that control to enact real change. Yes, part of that persuasion was absolutely intimidation. Much of that intimidation was bought with the blood of leftists.
The same exact conditions are precipitating now. The United States has had its tariffs and its deregulations and its tax cuts and its spending cuts. The stock market points wherever the fuck it wants, but the actual economy is pointing straight down.
And I completely agree that the solution isn’t “let the Democrats fix it”. Far from it.
But the solution certainly doesn’t involve opposition to the type of electoral candidates that would help fix things, like a 26 year old who seems genuinely interested in helping people.
yes. socialism. they were starting to demand socialism. no wonder new deal policies were heavily inspired by soviet policies.
the great depression was nothing more than a top-heavy deregulated capitalism crashing. exactly as predicted by marx. neoliberalism has risen to replace traditional capitalism, because us people bought the new deal as a compromise instead of deposing the capitalists.
bringing us right back to a similar conundrum now.
Lol ok. I am aware that they started to demand socialism. We are saying the exact same thing there.
Where we disagree is where you’re pessimistic in claiming that:
I am optimistic in claiming that:
I get the desire to reduce an extremely complex situation into simple answers. But the New Deal wasn’t just a compromise. The New Deal was an incredible leap forward for labor. And we didn’t completely stop - and later regress - just because we had reached a compromise. Republicans had regained control in the late 1930s, and Americans would have witnessed in real time as their amazing economic growth completely faltered. But that didn’t happen.
We regressed so dramatically because the Second World War gave us economic hegemony that allowed the US to flourish without actually doing anything to deserve it.
Neoliberalism and laissez faire capitalism would never have achieved such popularity in the modern day if not for the fact that the US economy was so strong following the New Deal and the wartime boost, and if the global economy hadn’t just been completely eviscerated.
These policies would have failed much sooner and much more obviously. But full-on Middle Ages Feudalism would have been popular for an entire generation of Baby Boomers, as long as a feudalistic United States was the last major industrial nation standing in the ashes of the 1940s.
The New Deal was socialism in action. To claim it was nothing but a compromise is what actually whitewashes all of the blood spilled to make it happen. We still benefit from the legacy of the New Deal, and we are actively fighting over its legacy as we speak.
The United States could have kept moving in that direction. The United States can move in that direction again. If you won’t support electoral candidates that can help make that happen, the least you could do is get out of the fucking way.
Go oppose electoral candidates that are diametrically opposed to socialism.