Don’t forget Chinese corner cutting. You probably have to knock 25% off of that if you want infrastructure of a level of quality and safety tolerable to Westerners.
I think it’s fair to guess China is less car-obsessed than Canada, and more serious about fighting climate change. That being said, without cheating it becomes pretty obvious we’re working with the same technology and fundamental logistics in this map.
Don’t forget Chinese corner cutting. You probably have to knock 25% off of that if you want infrastructure of a level of quality and safety tolerable to Westerners.
Is that a thing? It sounds a bit like some bullshit propaganda from here. China = bad.
As another who has been to China a few times and has friends there: It’s a thing.
The lack of regulations (better now than even 5 years ago, but still shit (*1), the lack of pollution protection laws (*3) and the lack of care in build quality (*2) in order to drive down project costs isn’t just a thing, it’s a fact:
I have family from out that way. It’s absolutely a thing in the third world in general, and then in China you have an enormous case of single metrics being used for success (like speed of project completion) and so becoming useless.
In the West, people would become outraged by unheated, crumbling train terminals and it would become a political issue. In China, they tend to censor negative political commentary, so the only people who’s opinion actually matter are other party officials.
Edit: Lol, two instant downvotes. Looks like someone is big mad about facts.
I live in Toronto and was in the Chengdu metro a month ago. I didn’t do a close inspection but it was fine. Honestly probably better than Toronto. The trains had AC and the terminals that I went to were not crumbling.
I think this meme is pretty reasonable. Toronto had a great start with subways, and still has huge ridership. They also have an excellent bus network. But the funding is very tight and the city has long prioritized inefficient personal vehicles. But it is a good point that you are comparing cities that an order of magnitude apart in population. Toronto also has 2 train lines (one light rail that should be opening within a year, and one subway that is probably 10 years away from opening) which are great to see, finally showing some investment in public transit. But the rate is nowhere near what the political will in China allows and also has a huge focus on new projects rather than keeping maintenance of existing infrastructure.
In many ways this is a wakeup call. If we wanted this level of infrastructure we could have it. But we need to actually commit rather than continuously slashing budgets so that we can let the rich pay less taxes and continue to subsidize car ownership.
Yes, like I said to someone else, I actually don’t know much about the rail system specifically. That was just an example of typical corners to cut.
The state of public transit in Canada is truly dire. Vancouver’s system seemed useable, but I haven’t personally spent enough time abroad to know if it is, or if it just is by comparison.
You have to adjust for labour costs. For reasons that have to do with certain industries not existing in the third world, it’s much higher in the West.
what do you mean “knock 25% off of that” (off what?) and “without cheating it becomes pretty obvious we’re working with the same technology and fundamental logistics in this map”? sorry i’m just struggling to parse this
Off of the remaining size of the Chengdu network after you correct for the other issues in OP’s representation.
Regardless of the ethnicity and mother tongue of the workers, smelting and extruding rebar, shipping it and pouring concrete around it is the same process. They can’t magically go faster over there, and the reason their labour seems cheaper on paper has to do with the West producing things they can’t (yet). If correctly presented, it would be pretty obvious it’s not apples-to-oranges like this comparison looks in OP, I think.
I am wondering WTF happened to Toronto line 3, though.
Can you please “correctly present” what about the classic Chinese cookie-cutter metro technology is deficient and 25% behind Western technology?
For why Chinese metro construction seems apparently faster you can watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehTy-qQVZhM; it’s just like them Cape Cod suburbs in North America. Nobody claimed that construction magically works faster. It all comes down to not making new logistical decisions and putting in money.
Don’t forget Chinese corner cutting. You probably have to knock 25% off of that if you want infrastructure of a level of quality and safety tolerable to Westerners.
I think it’s fair to guess China is less car-obsessed than Canada, and more serious about fighting climate change. That being said, without cheating it becomes pretty obvious we’re working with the same technology and fundamental logistics in this map.
Is that a thing? It sounds a bit like some bullshit propaganda from here. China = bad.
As another who has been to China a few times and has friends there: It’s a thing.
The lack of regulations (better now than even 5 years ago, but still shit (*1), the lack of pollution protection laws (*3) and the lack of care in build quality (*2) in order to drive down project costs isn’t just a thing, it’s a fact:
(1) https://www.adenservices.com/en/blogs/china-green-buildings-regulations/
(2) https://www.aii.org/chinas-infrastructure-and-construction-problem/
(3) https://shunwaste.com/article/how-do-people-get-around-the-pollution-law-in-china
I have family from out that way. It’s absolutely a thing in the third world in general, and then in China you have an enormous case of single metrics being used for success (like speed of project completion) and so becoming useless.
In the West, people would become outraged by unheated, crumbling train terminals and it would become a political issue. In China, they tend to censor negative political commentary, so the only people who’s opinion actually matter are other party officials.
Edit: Lol, two instant downvotes. Looks like someone is big mad about facts.
I live in Toronto and was in the Chengdu metro a month ago. I didn’t do a close inspection but it was fine. Honestly probably better than Toronto. The trains had AC and the terminals that I went to were not crumbling.
I think this meme is pretty reasonable. Toronto had a great start with subways, and still has huge ridership. They also have an excellent bus network. But the funding is very tight and the city has long prioritized inefficient personal vehicles. But it is a good point that you are comparing cities that an order of magnitude apart in population. Toronto also has 2 train lines (one light rail that should be opening within a year, and one subway that is probably 10 years away from opening) which are great to see, finally showing some investment in public transit. But the rate is nowhere near what the political will in China allows and also has a huge focus on new projects rather than keeping maintenance of existing infrastructure.
In many ways this is a wakeup call. If we wanted this level of infrastructure we could have it. But we need to actually commit rather than continuously slashing budgets so that we can let the rich pay less taxes and continue to subsidize car ownership.
Yes, like I said to someone else, I actually don’t know much about the rail system specifically. That was just an example of typical corners to cut.
The state of public transit in Canada is truly dire. Vancouver’s system seemed useable, but I haven’t personally spent enough time abroad to know if it is, or if it just is by comparison.
i think the measure is how many trains carrying industrial chemicals derail in china vs the usa
Well considering China would never report on an accurate number, we’ll never know.
Wait until you see the absolute dog shit they are building in the US right now for 4x the cost in China
You have to adjust for labour costs. For reasons that have to do with certain industries not existing in the third world, it’s much higher in the West.
Easy to build cheaply when you use slave labor
I mean…
https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studies/united-states/
https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studies/china/
3.3 slaves per thousand people vs 4.0 per thousand seems very similar to me.
Seeing that China enslaves people AND has highrises that crumble to pieces yeah, there’s definitely corner cutting
But hey, defend China all you want, bootlicker
what do you mean “knock 25% off of that” (off what?) and “without cheating it becomes pretty obvious we’re working with the same technology and fundamental logistics in this map”? sorry i’m just struggling to parse this
Off of the remaining size of the Chengdu network after you correct for the other issues in OP’s representation.
Regardless of the ethnicity and mother tongue of the workers, smelting and extruding rebar, shipping it and pouring concrete around it is the same process. They can’t magically go faster over there, and the reason their labour seems cheaper on paper has to do with the West producing things they can’t (yet). If correctly presented, it would be pretty obvious it’s not apples-to-oranges like this comparison looks in OP, I think.
I am wondering WTF happened to Toronto line 3, though.
btw as mentioned below, line 3 was cut to make way for replacing it with a line 2 extension
Yeah, the Wikipedia article is pretty long and I can’t really make out what’s going on easily. Did they not have funding to maintain both?
Can you please “correctly present” what about the classic Chinese cookie-cutter metro technology is deficient and 25% behind Western technology?
For why Chinese metro construction seems apparently faster you can watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehTy-qQVZhM; it’s just like them Cape Cod suburbs in North America. Nobody claimed that construction magically works faster. It all comes down to not making new logistical decisions and putting in money.
I don’t have rail-specific knowledge here. It’s just generally how construction works in places like China or Laos. Many other things, too.
Even if that is true, this is pristine underground rail!