Basically, don’t expect significant change from Democrats until we can get rid of the neo-liberals. Until then, you’re just voting harm that’s getting steadily worse.
You have to create it, it wont be handed to you on a silver platter. You can start by not kissing the dems arses and yelling at them to do better or fold up shop. While showing the republicans the back of your hand too, obviously. They are playing you and using your vote like its a foregone conclusion, and you are letting them. Why not stand up for yourself? Or do you have any morals at all? American selfishness is another issue and it disguises itself as learned helplessness.
That’s one of the major problems, Democrats claim to support the no death camp issue, but they want someone else to do all the work so they can come in afterwards, jump on our bandwagon as if they supported it the whole time
Your post says not to vote for the lesser evil. Voting for the greater evil would be stupid. Are you advocating for voting third party then? What is your actual suggestion?
But you are. The thing is systems of governance for hundreds of millions of people, all with different wants, morals and desires across very different circumstances and locales is going to be extremely complex. Mix into that the shitty power dynamics of capitalism and you system with a lot of political inertia that eventually boils down to 2 pretty similar positions at the highest level. And trying to move that political lever at the very furthers end is difficult.
If you want your position given more weight, then you have to act at every level of governance, not just the very top with the presidential election.
That’s certainly a theory. But it doesn’t really hold up. The reason we have 2 similar positions at the highest level is because they are one position, it’s the position the dominant ruling class and it always has been. You think that somehow the desire of native Americans to be free mixed with the desire for black Americans for reparations mixed with poor immigrants to be safe mixed with poor white people to be healthy leads to Palestinian genocide?
Naw. Come on! You can’t think that’s how this works, can you?
If you only think in the broadest terms, sure, they are both capitalist neoliberal parties. But when you look at it more granularly and through the lense of long term change rather than the idea we could somehow have a communist USA by the next election, then they are very different.
Since we have no real socialist party and we are not anywhere near the critical mass required for a revolution, the best we can is lay groundwork for the future, educate and organise. And when one party is labelling AntiFa as terrorists, attacking education and the arts and disenfranchising left wing and minority voters, the best option is pretty clearly to use your vote to prevent that, rather than not voting or casting a token vote for 3rd parties. As it not only reduces harm in the short term, it makes it easier to achieve long term goals.
And primaries are a thing. Currently the Dems are similar on Palestine because most in the house are pro Israel, but we have already organised to get pro Palestine officials into office, so if we able to get even more, that would pressure the government to take action.
This has happened in other countries for example, Labour in the UK started as stuanchky pro Israel, with Starmer saying Israel had the right to cut off food and water. Then facing a rise in pro Palestine MP both in his own party and from the Greens, as well as activist pressure, he has steadily relented on that position to the point the UK now recognises Palestine as a country. And only hasn’t gone further because there’s is still a large Zionist contingent also putting their own pressure on government. But if pro Palestine people just didn’t vote, they wouldn’t have gotten any MPs and there would be no pressure on Labour and no reason for the government to attempt to court those voters.
Again it seems to me you are only viewing things through a very short sighted black and white lense.
You know what stops pipelines? Physical altercations. You know what stops cop cities? Physical altercations. Voting has only ever increased the military, increased the police, and increased the prisons. Voting one way or the other literally has no impact. The only way to stop this stuff is to fight.
Like the Keystone XL pipeline that was delayed by Obama, then Trump tried to force it through and then was finally stopped when Biden signed an executive order revoking their permit?
Which cities are no longer “cop cities” (whatever that means) because of physical altercstions?
Voting passed civil rights, voting ended gay criminalisation, voting passed labour laws, healthcare reform and women’s rights.
And when it goes the other way voting gets us war in Iran, gets criminalised abortions, legalised transphobia, qualified immunity for cops, “clean coal”, legalised pedophilia, people executed by ice, and hundred of thousands of people deported.
There is literally no argument for fighting for your rights that excludes voting as well.
Keep going please…Tell me how that would work in the US system …
Well first I want you to imagine having a sense of decency, an ability to feel shame, and identify what morality you have, if any. Let me know when you get to that point and we’ll talk next steps. Whats worth you acting on? Not someone else, you.
edit: no reply, and theres your answer. You will only act when you are literally lit on fire, and until then you’ll sit there and do nothing while flapping your mouth uselessly, same as you centrist lot always do. You are a walking liability to whatever political party will have you.
You don’t need to get rid of that system. All you do is need to vote for candidates that do not support the oligarchy. But liberals are not concerned about long-term success, their concern about the short-term win
In the 21st century alone, Democratic presidential candidates have accumulated tens of millions more raw votes than their Republican counterparts, heavily bolstered by high-population states like California and New York. For instance, in 2008 and 2020, Democratic candidates won the popular vote by margins of roughly 9.5 million and 7 million votes respectively.
Democratic primaries routinely draw higher raw voter turnout than Republican primaries.
When evaluating the “national house vote” (the cumulative number of votes cast nationwide for all members of the U.S. House of Representatives) the Democratic Party frequently captures a higher raw vote total. High-turnout midterm wave elections, such as the 2006 and 2018 midterms, saw immense raw vote advantages for Democrats.
Local election turnouts are heavily dominated by major metropolitan areas. America’s most populous cities (such as New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago) feature massive electorates that vote overwhelmingly for Democratic candidates in local municipal races.
So your theory of is not supported by the evidence. Please try to explain why things are the way they are again, but this time include the fact that Democrats have consistently voted more at every single level than Republics for almost 30 years.
Problem solved! We’ll all just go…not vote?
Hmmm…that doesn’t seem right. Doesn’t that let all the people who really want to vote for the 51 death camps decide who’s in charge then?
Either way you get death camps, get off the trolley and discover there’s a no death camp option
Basically, don’t expect significant change from Democrats until we can get rid of the neo-liberals. Until then, you’re just voting harm that’s getting steadily worse.
What is the no death camp option in the United States? I would genuinely like to know.
The only option I’m aware of is voting more, not less. Vote in every primary and every local election. Make yourself part of the process.
By electing the same people that got us into this mess?
You didn’t answer the question. What’s the no death camp option?
You have to create it, it wont be handed to you on a silver platter. You can start by not kissing the dems arses and yelling at them to do better or fold up shop. While showing the republicans the back of your hand too, obviously. They are playing you and using your vote like its a foregone conclusion, and you are letting them. Why not stand up for yourself? Or do you have any morals at all? American selfishness is another issue and it disguises itself as learned helplessness.
That’s one of the major problems, Democrats claim to support the no death camp issue, but they want someone else to do all the work so they can come in afterwards, jump on our bandwagon as if they supported it the whole time
And how does not voting help that?
What is it with liberals when someone says you don’t have to support the oligarchy they translate that to don’t vote
Obvious troll is obvious. Your whole post is about not voting.
Also you’re probably more of liberal than me little guy.
Your post says not to vote for the lesser evil. Voting for the greater evil would be stupid. Are you advocating for voting third party then? What is your actual suggestion?
It isn’t there. Vote for whoever you want, but acknowledging that you were not given choices at all is important.
But you are. The thing is systems of governance for hundreds of millions of people, all with different wants, morals and desires across very different circumstances and locales is going to be extremely complex. Mix into that the shitty power dynamics of capitalism and you system with a lot of political inertia that eventually boils down to 2 pretty similar positions at the highest level. And trying to move that political lever at the very furthers end is difficult.
If you want your position given more weight, then you have to act at every level of governance, not just the very top with the presidential election.
That’s certainly a theory. But it doesn’t really hold up. The reason we have 2 similar positions at the highest level is because they are one position, it’s the position the dominant ruling class and it always has been. You think that somehow the desire of native Americans to be free mixed with the desire for black Americans for reparations mixed with poor immigrants to be safe mixed with poor white people to be healthy leads to Palestinian genocide?
Naw. Come on! You can’t think that’s how this works, can you?
If you only think in the broadest terms, sure, they are both capitalist neoliberal parties. But when you look at it more granularly and through the lense of long term change rather than the idea we could somehow have a communist USA by the next election, then they are very different.
Since we have no real socialist party and we are not anywhere near the critical mass required for a revolution, the best we can is lay groundwork for the future, educate and organise. And when one party is labelling AntiFa as terrorists, attacking education and the arts and disenfranchising left wing and minority voters, the best option is pretty clearly to use your vote to prevent that, rather than not voting or casting a token vote for 3rd parties. As it not only reduces harm in the short term, it makes it easier to achieve long term goals.
And primaries are a thing. Currently the Dems are similar on Palestine because most in the house are pro Israel, but we have already organised to get pro Palestine officials into office, so if we able to get even more, that would pressure the government to take action.
This has happened in other countries for example, Labour in the UK started as stuanchky pro Israel, with Starmer saying Israel had the right to cut off food and water. Then facing a rise in pro Palestine MP both in his own party and from the Greens, as well as activist pressure, he has steadily relented on that position to the point the UK now recognises Palestine as a country. And only hasn’t gone further because there’s is still a large Zionist contingent also putting their own pressure on government. But if pro Palestine people just didn’t vote, they wouldn’t have gotten any MPs and there would be no pressure on Labour and no reason for the government to attempt to court those voters.
Again it seems to me you are only viewing things through a very short sighted black and white lense.
don’t be petulant.
It would be the option for expressing power outside of voting…
And how has that gone for you? How many concentration camps has it stopped?
I mean it’s not going well, but I having trouble thinking of a time where a country voted its way out of having concentration camps either.
Britain ended slavery and the transatlantic slave trade through voting.
You know what stops pipelines? Physical altercations. You know what stops cop cities? Physical altercations. Voting has only ever increased the military, increased the police, and increased the prisons. Voting one way or the other literally has no impact. The only way to stop this stuff is to fight.
Like the Keystone XL pipeline that was delayed by Obama, then Trump tried to force it through and then was finally stopped when Biden signed an executive order revoking their permit?
Which cities are no longer “cop cities” (whatever that means) because of physical altercstions?
Voting passed civil rights, voting ended gay criminalisation, voting passed labour laws, healthcare reform and women’s rights.
And when it goes the other way voting gets us war in Iran, gets criminalised abortions, legalised transphobia, qualified immunity for cops, “clean coal”, legalised pedophilia, people executed by ice, and hundred of thousands of people deported.
There is literally no argument for fighting for your rights that excludes voting as well.
Keep going please…Tell me how that would work in the US system of First Past The Post elections.
Or if First Past The Post elections is the problem, tell me how you would get rid of that system.
Well first I want you to imagine having a sense of decency, an ability to feel shame, and identify what morality you have, if any. Let me know when you get to that point and we’ll talk next steps. Whats worth you acting on? Not someone else, you.
edit: no reply, and theres your answer. You will only act when you are literally lit on fire, and until then you’ll sit there and do nothing while flapping your mouth uselessly, same as you centrist lot always do. You are a walking liability to whatever political party will have you.
Sigh…
So you don’t actually have a real solution for getting rid of the conservatives and neoliberals in office.
You just want everyone to know that you’re too cool to be a Republican or a Democrat. 👍
You don’t need to get rid of that system. All you do is need to vote for candidates that do not support the oligarchy. But liberals are not concerned about long-term success, their concern about the short-term win
I mean…yes. Exactly. That’s what the primaries are for. Primary out the neoliberals.
The Republicans primary out anyone who isn’t hard right enough for them. They vote, then they vote again, then they vote some more.
And now all branches of government are controlled by the hard right. Because they voted. A lot.
Incorrect.
In the 21st century alone, Democratic presidential candidates have accumulated tens of millions more raw votes than their Republican counterparts, heavily bolstered by high-population states like California and New York. For instance, in 2008 and 2020, Democratic candidates won the popular vote by margins of roughly 9.5 million and 7 million votes respectively.
Democratic primaries routinely draw higher raw voter turnout than Republican primaries.
When evaluating the “national house vote” (the cumulative number of votes cast nationwide for all members of the U.S. House of Representatives) the Democratic Party frequently captures a higher raw vote total. High-turnout midterm wave elections, such as the 2006 and 2018 midterms, saw immense raw vote advantages for Democrats.
Local election turnouts are heavily dominated by major metropolitan areas. America’s most populous cities (such as New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago) feature massive electorates that vote overwhelmingly for Democratic candidates in local municipal races.
So your theory of is not supported by the evidence. Please try to explain why things are the way they are again, but this time include the fact that Democrats have consistently voted more at every single level than Republics for almost 30 years.
It would require not using elections to express power
It’s not like you can’t do both. Vote the lesser evil, get off the trolley.
So the solution is get off the trolley but keep supporting the people that are creating the trolley situation?
They don’t require your support to hold elections. What would “not supporting” elections by not voting do, exactly?
Who said anything about not voting? Liberals have locked themselves into a binary system of oppression that they claim to oppose
I said ‘vote the lesser evil’ you opposed. So I’d say you said that.
Ok, are you proposing to vote? For whom?
Literally whomever isn’t a genocidaire
Ok. If the top two candidates both qualified as a “genocidaire” to you, what would you do? Vote third party? Not vote?