Yeah. I mean. That’s just not what a class traitor is. Management serves a function that would exist whether or not there was a bourgeoisie. Workers are capable of choosing when they need a management function (coordination, longer term planning, etc) to exist within their cooperative structures and the people who energize that management function are doing actual work that has value.
Yes, the bourgeoisie convinced many managers to become class traitors for a slice of the pie, but it’s not inherent to the role like it is for cops or imperial soldiers.
You’re confusing a collectively decided role with bourgeoisie lapdogs. The meme specifies middle management, not coordinators, longer term planners, etc… Not all work requires management, and not certainly bourgeoisie protectors.
Middle management is explicitly not the task masters that supervise workers and police their behavior and explicitly not the c-suite of do-nothing bourgeoisie soothsayers. It’s quite explicitly the group of people that analyze the organization, improve safety and training, handle worker complaints, plan things, evaluate decisions that impact the collective, etc.
Middle management absolutely includes coordinator functions, planning functions, etc.
I’m not confusing a collectively decided role with bourgeoisie lapdogs, I am saying that the work that middle.managemrnt does in bourgeois corporations includes much of the same work that would be needed in a large-scale workers cooperative.
I’m not confusing a collectively decided role with bourgeoisie lapdogs, I am saying that the work that middle.managemrnt does in bourgeois corporations includes much of the same work that would be needed in a large-scale workers cooperative.
If this was true, the bourgeoisie would have ceased from existing, as “large-scale organizers” would have already toppled oppressive c-suites and private firms. It is precisely the fact bourgeoisie authorized management the powers to impose sanctions, demotions, pay cuts, worsen hours, worsen conditions, and harass, why the bourgeoisie hold any power. They are the supervisors, the internal police, the “soothsayers.”
No, that doesn’t make any sense. There’s no way that a procurement manager or a sales VP would have sufficient power or safety to topple the bourgeoisie. That’s a ridiculous sentiment. As we all know, the workers could just topple the bourgeoisie too and they haven’t, does that make them lapdogs and class traitors?
Middle management are not the supervisors, by definition. Supervisors of front line staff are excluded from the definition of middle management. Without supervising workers, middle management cannot be “the police” because they are not interacting with front line staff directly and cannot monitor them. Middle management primarily works with abstract collections of information, generally responding to price signals, and provide the information management tasks required for organizations to make decisions.
And they are not bourgeois soothsayers because middle management doesn’t talk to investors, bankers, creditors, and politicians. That’s upper management and explicitly excluded from middle management.
So no, middle management are not police and are not soothsayers. They are well paid members of the working class who are given a larger cut of the surplus in exchange for operating the bureaucracy of capitalism instead of the machine rooms of capitalism. They can be as much class traitors as individual laborers can be class traitors. But the role/work in and of itself isn’t inherently class betrayal.
Apparently both literature, the meme, and reality conflict with your definition of the police of the bourgeoisie. Until the bourgeois police empower the proletariat, we have nothing further engage in.
Ah yes, anarchist literature. I had a feeling someone like Malatesta would make an appearance in your argument sooner or later
Have fun with your moral crusade wherein you are the template for the hero and everyone else is your enemy. I am sure that will build class consciousness, revolutionary potential, and sustainable transformation.
I hate to say this, but I think youre completely full of your own shit.
Managers aren’t like cops. It’s not some moral quoundry to take a managerial position. Very often, the position is given to someone who’s very competent at their jobs and has the respect of their coworkers.
Of course, there are evil and shit managers too. And there are evil and shit working class non managers. Whatever your personal grudge is should remain just that. Keep your personal enemies.
Our public enemy is the billionaire class. If youre telling me that the guy making 55k a year and managers a team of 8 is on par with the billionaire class, you’ve lost the story completely
Did we read the same meme, or are you this apologetic to the bourgeoisie lapdogs?
Managers are the exact reason bourgeoisie have remained bourgeois for millennia: the bourgeoisie have convinced their brownshirts loyalty for a bigger cut of the pies they larceny. They both need to go, because they are both the oppression.
precisely why they are class traitors.
I want givesomefucks to see it, say it, and claim them.
Yeah. I mean. That’s just not what a class traitor is. Management serves a function that would exist whether or not there was a bourgeoisie. Workers are capable of choosing when they need a management function (coordination, longer term planning, etc) to exist within their cooperative structures and the people who energize that management function are doing actual work that has value.
Yes, the bourgeoisie convinced many managers to become class traitors for a slice of the pie, but it’s not inherent to the role like it is for cops or imperial soldiers.
You’re confusing a collectively decided role with bourgeoisie lapdogs. The meme specifies middle management, not coordinators, longer term planners, etc… Not all work requires management, and not certainly bourgeoisie protectors.
Middle management is explicitly not the task masters that supervise workers and police their behavior and explicitly not the c-suite of do-nothing bourgeoisie soothsayers. It’s quite explicitly the group of people that analyze the organization, improve safety and training, handle worker complaints, plan things, evaluate decisions that impact the collective, etc.
Middle management absolutely includes coordinator functions, planning functions, etc.
I’m not confusing a collectively decided role with bourgeoisie lapdogs, I am saying that the work that middle.managemrnt does in bourgeois corporations includes much of the same work that would be needed in a large-scale workers cooperative.
If this was true, the bourgeoisie would have ceased from existing, as “large-scale organizers” would have already toppled oppressive c-suites and private firms. It is precisely the fact bourgeoisie authorized management the powers to impose sanctions, demotions, pay cuts, worsen hours, worsen conditions, and harass, why the bourgeoisie hold any power. They are the supervisors, the internal police, the “soothsayers.”
No, that doesn’t make any sense. There’s no way that a procurement manager or a sales VP would have sufficient power or safety to topple the bourgeoisie. That’s a ridiculous sentiment. As we all know, the workers could just topple the bourgeoisie too and they haven’t, does that make them lapdogs and class traitors?
Middle management are not the supervisors, by definition. Supervisors of front line staff are excluded from the definition of middle management. Without supervising workers, middle management cannot be “the police” because they are not interacting with front line staff directly and cannot monitor them. Middle management primarily works with abstract collections of information, generally responding to price signals, and provide the information management tasks required for organizations to make decisions.
And they are not bourgeois soothsayers because middle management doesn’t talk to investors, bankers, creditors, and politicians. That’s upper management and explicitly excluded from middle management.
So no, middle management are not police and are not soothsayers. They are well paid members of the working class who are given a larger cut of the surplus in exchange for operating the bureaucracy of capitalism instead of the machine rooms of capitalism. They can be as much class traitors as individual laborers can be class traitors. But the role/work in and of itself isn’t inherently class betrayal.
Apparently both literature, the meme, and reality conflict with your definition of the police of the bourgeoisie. Until the bourgeois police empower the proletariat, we have nothing further engage in.
Ah yes, anarchist literature. I had a feeling someone like Malatesta would make an appearance in your argument sooner or later
Have fun with your moral crusade wherein you are the template for the hero and everyone else is your enemy. I am sure that will build class consciousness, revolutionary potential, and sustainable transformation.
Show me your literature, since it seem you use Italian fascist ones.
I hate to say this, but I think youre completely full of your own shit.
Managers aren’t like cops. It’s not some moral quoundry to take a managerial position. Very often, the position is given to someone who’s very competent at their jobs and has the respect of their coworkers.
Of course, there are evil and shit managers too. And there are evil and shit working class non managers. Whatever your personal grudge is should remain just that. Keep your personal enemies.
Our public enemy is the billionaire class. If youre telling me that the guy making 55k a year and managers a team of 8 is on par with the billionaire class, you’ve lost the story completely
Did we read the same meme, or are you this apologetic to the bourgeoisie lapdogs?
Managers are the exact reason bourgeoisie have remained bourgeois for millennia: the bourgeoisie have convinced their brownshirts loyalty for a bigger cut of the pies they larceny. They both need to go, because they are both the oppression.