The problem is that planes are heavily subsidised. If those subsidies were just removed, train would be the cheaper option. If the subsidies were shifted to rail, buses, and bikes, things would be much cheaper.
Yeah but it isn’t currently and it’s still 2 hours vs 12 hours one way for the foreseeable future. The CA high-speed rail was a catastrophic failure as for planning and government spending.
if the trains were faster the cost would make sense. if that 20 hour amtrak ride was actually 2.5 hours like the planes to get from the middle of the us to the east cost of the us, then the 194$ train ticket vs 98$ (minimum you could find is probably like 98$ you’re more or less looking at like 120$/plane ticket) plane ticket would make sense.
The train takes 12 to 13 hours from SD to SF and the flight including security is 3 hours. I can imagine on very short distances with congested international airports that’s possibly true.
Flying is a terrible experience, when rail costs the same as flying, while not taking much longer, barely anyone will be flying anymore. That can be seen on HSR corridors of 2h or less. Airlines struggle to even keep those flights up and running against HSR, commonly they are simply discontinued due to lack of demand.
Not taking much longer? The train from San Diego to San Francisco is 13 to 15 hours and a flight is two hours most. You can find tickets for both from about $60 to $80.
You know what “HSR” means, do you? There is no HSR in the entire USA today. So whatever you are comparing here, it is not aviation vs HSR. Also, flight time does not matter, what matters is travel time and unless you are dishonest to yourself the travel for that flight is flight time + 1-3h or so (all the time wasting on both airports plus transfer).
Last but not least, San Diego to SF is not built primarily for going all the way. However, San Diego to SF would be still competitive at around 4h, while LA to SF would be highly competitive, to the point where it would obliterate the flight connections (or the highly limited airport capacities of LAX would be at least redirected where it makes a lot more sense than redundant LA SF services with heavy competition)
Dishonest? I’ve made the trip both ways myself but it’s been a few years so I just looked it up again before posting that comment. As for the airport it does depend on what type of flyer one is.
Yes, dishonest. The pure flight time is 1:40-1:55. So, you did the flight, be honest, how long was your actual door to door travel time and what was the time from arriving at the airport to the plane actually starting to move as well as from the plane opening the doors to the time leaving the airport, sitting in a car, train or whatever?
Last time I got there and boarded just in time. It was an early flight and I was running late so was the very last to board. About 30 minutes max I think from getting to the airport to getting to my seat, I think less but I wouldn’t suggest anyone do that with just any flight. About 30 or so minutes to getting picked up. Even if we take in showing up an two hours before and taking an hour to get out of the airport that’s still 5 vs 14 hours for essentially the same price.
See, it is not 2h it is 3h, at the very least, without any transfer times and in a very rushed setting even you would not recommend to others. Like I said, 1-3h for both airports have to be added to get to realistic travel times. And that is why HSR connections under 2h decimate flights on the same route and connections under 4h are still highly competitive.
For business travellers the benefits are even stronger. You spend most of the HSR travel time in your seat, so you can stay productive on your laptop for the whole time. When flying that is possible at best for some of the time the rest you have to change locations or wait but not long enough to get a lot done. Business class premiums are much higher on flights and transfer times for airports tend to be considerably longer, transit options tend to be much more overpriced …
I am not sure why you still insist on comparing flights to slow trains when this thread is exclusively about HSR. No one here, except for you, is talking about the underdevevloped infrastructure the US has today. We are talking about the rail infrastructure one would expect in a developed country on these corridors. And proper HSR would need 4h from San Diego to SF (conventional one, not even talking about Maglev). With LA being located in the 1.5-2.5h range to both. You can get through the stations in minutes as well. So add 20 min or so to that time if you will.
Personally I’m not able to get much work done in transit. A more stationary setting is better for me personally which is why less time in transit towards the perspective of productivity is in the discussion.
Yeah, the problem is train tickets are about the same cost as a plane ticket. There’s little incentive to choose rail.
The problem is that planes are heavily subsidised. If those subsidies were just removed, train would be the cheaper option. If the subsidies were shifted to rail, buses, and bikes, things would be much cheaper.
Yeah but it isn’t currently and it’s still 2 hours vs 12 hours one way for the foreseeable future. The CA high-speed rail was a catastrophic failure as for planning and government spending.
if the trains were faster the cost would make sense. if that 20 hour amtrak ride was actually 2.5 hours like the planes to get from the middle of the us to the east cost of the us, then the 194$ train ticket vs 98$ (minimum you could find is probably like 98$ you’re more or less looking at like 120$/plane ticket) plane ticket would make sense.
When you include airport security the train is faster than flying.
The train takes 12 to 13 hours from SD to SF and the flight including security is 3 hours. I can imagine on very short distances with congested international airports that’s possibly true.
If California High Speed Rail ever connects SD to SF then that trip should take only 4hours. That is the beauty of proper high speed rail.
If it’s the same price and rail today then that would be very competitive.
Flying is a terrible experience, when rail costs the same as flying, while not taking much longer, barely anyone will be flying anymore. That can be seen on HSR corridors of 2h or less. Airlines struggle to even keep those flights up and running against HSR, commonly they are simply discontinued due to lack of demand.
Not taking much longer? The train from San Diego to San Francisco is 13 to 15 hours and a flight is two hours most. You can find tickets for both from about $60 to $80.
You know what “HSR” means, do you? There is no HSR in the entire USA today. So whatever you are comparing here, it is not aviation vs HSR. Also, flight time does not matter, what matters is travel time and unless you are dishonest to yourself the travel for that flight is flight time + 1-3h or so (all the time wasting on both airports plus transfer).
Last but not least, San Diego to SF is not built primarily for going all the way. However, San Diego to SF would be still competitive at around 4h, while LA to SF would be highly competitive, to the point where it would obliterate the flight connections (or the highly limited airport capacities of LAX would be at least redirected where it makes a lot more sense than redundant LA SF services with heavy competition)
Dishonest? I’ve made the trip both ways myself but it’s been a few years so I just looked it up again before posting that comment. As for the airport it does depend on what type of flyer one is.
Yes, dishonest. The pure flight time is 1:40-1:55. So, you did the flight, be honest, how long was your actual door to door travel time and what was the time from arriving at the airport to the plane actually starting to move as well as from the plane opening the doors to the time leaving the airport, sitting in a car, train or whatever?
Last time I got there and boarded just in time. It was an early flight and I was running late so was the very last to board. About 30 minutes max I think from getting to the airport to getting to my seat, I think less but I wouldn’t suggest anyone do that with just any flight. About 30 or so minutes to getting picked up. Even if we take in showing up an two hours before and taking an hour to get out of the airport that’s still 5 vs 14 hours for essentially the same price.
See, it is not 2h it is 3h, at the very least, without any transfer times and in a very rushed setting even you would not recommend to others. Like I said, 1-3h for both airports have to be added to get to realistic travel times. And that is why HSR connections under 2h decimate flights on the same route and connections under 4h are still highly competitive.
For business travellers the benefits are even stronger. You spend most of the HSR travel time in your seat, so you can stay productive on your laptop for the whole time. When flying that is possible at best for some of the time the rest you have to change locations or wait but not long enough to get a lot done. Business class premiums are much higher on flights and transfer times for airports tend to be considerably longer, transit options tend to be much more overpriced …
I am not sure why you still insist on comparing flights to slow trains when this thread is exclusively about HSR. No one here, except for you, is talking about the underdevevloped infrastructure the US has today. We are talking about the rail infrastructure one would expect in a developed country on these corridors. And proper HSR would need 4h from San Diego to SF (conventional one, not even talking about Maglev). With LA being located in the 1.5-2.5h range to both. You can get through the stations in minutes as well. So add 20 min or so to that time if you will.
Personally I’m not able to get much work done in transit. A more stationary setting is better for me personally which is why less time in transit towards the perspective of productivity is in the discussion.
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Costs me $45 to take a train from fresno to San Francisco, there ain’t no way I can get a plane ticket that cheap.
Was $120 the last time I took the round trip and looking it up now says $65 one way