How about instead of forcing people into military service against their will, stop fucking over young and working class people so maybe they feel like there is actually something worth fighting for.
There’s no amount of money you can pay someone to give their life if the living conditions are good.
The only option is either make it ideological to serve (eg: nationalism) or choose from poverty/unemployed class.
Fucking over the young and working class helps in both. You get a strata of society you can manipulate on ideological and financial grounds
You do realize that mandatory service is not the same as actually joining the military? Besides, the military doesn’t want to recruit people who will actively resist their service and stir trouble.
Conscious objecters used to be either released from service or offered some sort of alternative to completing their service. So if you really don’t want to go, you’ll likely be able to dodge it.
My point is that if you create the incentives for people to voluntarily choose a career in the military, then you don’t have to force people to serve against their will. And that includes making a society that people think is worth protecting, instead of one that just protects capital interests of the rich, while fucking over poor people, most of all the same young people that are being pushed into service. But it’s easier to just force them, I guess.
Doesn’t work when veterans have consistently and publicly been treated like shit, the army needs at least be a better option afterwards and if it’s not then not even the desperate will willingly join.
If you’re talking about USA veterans, then it should be surprising that most soldiers and veterans lean Republican despite Republican politicians advocating for shittier treatment
Policy to ideological leaning is not a straight line
Right, so we should just sit back and let Eastern Europe get overrun by Russia? I’m sure it’ll work out great for youth unemployment and affordable housing. Freedom and democracy are actually worth fighting for.
I’m less worried about Europe’s ability to defend itself against Russia than I am about building a strong military for the fascists of the AfD if they manage to take power in Germany.
Besides, in my opinion forcing unwilling people in to military service is immoral, regardless of circumstances.
That was true 70 years ago, but today Germany is a country with an aging population, outdated industry and infrastructure, few remaining natural resources, strong cultural and historic ties with Russia and a populace that leans heavily into pacifism. Military adventurism just isn’t in the cards, regardless who wins the elections.
I’ll even argue that to remain passive in the face of injustice isn’t at all moral or ethical. We are already at war. The enemy just hasn’t reached the German border yet.
While Germans drag their feet, discussing matters of military support, re-armament and deterrence, more and more Ukrainians are left dead from Russian missiles and drones. Germany’s ethics are paid for in blood by Ukrainian men, woman and children.
It’s a country where 30% of the population votes for fascists. In some parts it’s more like 50%. I hope you’re right, but I don’t want to see a potential AfD led government with a strong military.
I agree that pacifism in the face of Russian aggression is a mistake, but recruiting a bunch of kids who don’t want to serve is not going to do anything to help Ukraine.
Nobody from Europe is sending troops into Ukraine. Nothing will happen until Russia actually attacks a NATO member, but then it’s a genuine question if any NATO country will actually uphold its promise.
Comsidering how many countries are really really scared of Russian nukes, I think it’s more likely that should a NATO country get attacked, every other NATO country will just pussyfoot around, even if they have a large military.
Russia actually invading a NATO state is not a likely scenario, but minor incursions are. Not responding to those will fracture NATO and invite even more Russian aggression, with the ultimate goal of wrestling territory from the Baltics.
But here’s the catch: its not just the Baltics that are at risk. The Baltic states are also EU member states. If Russia manages to succesfully confront and annex EU member states, then it will massively impact things like the value of the Euro, the credibility and stability of EU institutions, freedom of travel et cetera.
Even right-wing governments will be forced respond. So we’ll still end up fighting a war with Russia, only from a considerably worse poisition then if we continue re-arming Europe and supporting Ukraine.
How about instead of forcing people into military service against their will, stop fucking over young and working class people so maybe they feel like there is actually something worth fighting for.
Why not both?
There’s no amount of money you can pay someone to give their life if the living conditions are good. The only option is either make it ideological to serve (eg: nationalism) or choose from poverty/unemployed class.
Fucking over the young and working class helps in both. You get a strata of society you can manipulate on ideological and financial grounds
Perhaps not to give their life, but to risk it there is, which is more accurate. It’s not like joining the military has a 100% fatality rate.
You do realize that mandatory service is not the same as actually joining the military? Besides, the military doesn’t want to recruit people who will actively resist their service and stir trouble.
Conscious objecters used to be either released from service or offered some sort of alternative to completing their service. So if you really don’t want to go, you’ll likely be able to dodge it.
My point is that if you create the incentives for people to voluntarily choose a career in the military, then you don’t have to force people to serve against their will. And that includes making a society that people think is worth protecting, instead of one that just protects capital interests of the rich, while fucking over poor people, most of all the same young people that are being pushed into service. But it’s easier to just force them, I guess.
My bad! I misread your comment 🫢
Doesn’t work when veterans have consistently and publicly been treated like shit, the army needs at least be a better option afterwards and if it’s not then not even the desperate will willingly join.
If you’re talking about USA veterans, then it should be surprising that most soldiers and veterans lean Republican despite Republican politicians advocating for shittier treatment
Policy to ideological leaning is not a straight line
Right, so we should just sit back and let Eastern Europe get overrun by Russia? I’m sure it’ll work out great for youth unemployment and affordable housing. Freedom and democracy are actually worth fighting for.
I’m less worried about Europe’s ability to defend itself against Russia than I am about building a strong military for the fascists of the AfD if they manage to take power in Germany.
Besides, in my opinion forcing unwilling people in to military service is immoral, regardless of circumstances.
That was true 70 years ago, but today Germany is a country with an aging population, outdated industry and infrastructure, few remaining natural resources, strong cultural and historic ties with Russia and a populace that leans heavily into pacifism. Military adventurism just isn’t in the cards, regardless who wins the elections.
I’ll even argue that to remain passive in the face of injustice isn’t at all moral or ethical. We are already at war. The enemy just hasn’t reached the German border yet.
While Germans drag their feet, discussing matters of military support, re-armament and deterrence, more and more Ukrainians are left dead from Russian missiles and drones. Germany’s ethics are paid for in blood by Ukrainian men, woman and children.
It’s a country where 30% of the population votes for fascists. In some parts it’s more like 50%. I hope you’re right, but I don’t want to see a potential AfD led government with a strong military.
I agree that pacifism in the face of Russian aggression is a mistake, but recruiting a bunch of kids who don’t want to serve is not going to do anything to help Ukraine.
maybe history showed that militarization is a major contributing factor for the authorian formation of societies.
This is also a very legitimate concern.
Nobody from Europe is sending troops into Ukraine. Nothing will happen until Russia actually attacks a NATO member, but then it’s a genuine question if any NATO country will actually uphold its promise.
Comsidering how many countries are really really scared of Russian nukes, I think it’s more likely that should a NATO country get attacked, every other NATO country will just pussyfoot around, even if they have a large military.
Russia actually invading a NATO state is not a likely scenario, but minor incursions are. Not responding to those will fracture NATO and invite even more Russian aggression, with the ultimate goal of wrestling territory from the Baltics.
But here’s the catch: its not just the Baltics that are at risk. The Baltic states are also EU member states. If Russia manages to succesfully confront and annex EU member states, then it will massively impact things like the value of the Euro, the credibility and stability of EU institutions, freedom of travel et cetera.
Even right-wing governments will be forced respond. So we’ll still end up fighting a war with Russia, only from a considerably worse poisition then if we continue re-arming Europe and supporting Ukraine.
Let’s not forget the profits!