Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky has said the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin – the Russian mercenary leader whose plane crashed weeks after he led a mutiny against Moscow’s military leadership – shows what happens when people make deals with Russian leader Vladimir Putin.
As Ukraine’s counteroffensive moves into a fourth month, with only modest gains to show so far, Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria he rejected suggestions it was time to negotiate peace with the Kremlin.
“When you want to have a compromise or a dialogue with somebody, you cannot do it with a liar,” Volodymyr Zelensky said.
Withdrawing troops, returning stolen land, children, prisoners and paying for damages… thats all i would accept. Nothing less.
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Eastern European countries love their “macho” leaders. Putin has been doing the whole shtick since forever and Zelensky started it too since 2022. Fucking hate this shit.
Lots of countries have this problem. Their people are looking for strong leaders, not smart leaders, and many interpret bullying as strength.
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Democratic leadership hasn’t really done much for Ukraine. The Russians still have Bakhmut (their big gain from last winter). Almost the entirety of the Ukrainian counteroffensive has been dedicated to an area of land less than twenty kilometers across. Meanwhile, Russian forces are massing North of Kupyansk and Ukrainian supplies are drained.
The West doesn’t seem to really care about Ukraine - while Russia has been able to bring their economy into war footing in about a year, the West is happy to dig around and play accounting tricks to scrounge up what they can. The recent shipment of ATACMS missiles was, well…
“A surprising discovery could also ease the administration’s choice to send the weapons: The U.S. has found it has more ATACMS in its inventory than originally assessed.”
That’s what we’re stuck with? Hundreds of billions of dollars down the drain and aid is only being sent because they miscounted inventory?
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Fast and cheap? Is that what you call losing 60 thousand lives to eke out a salient on low ground?
Just goes to show you the disparity right? NATO is keeping ukraine in the fight against a country which brought its “economy into war footing in about a year” by sending whatever they find lying around down the back of the couch.
If only you also were in the position to dictate this to Russia. Even the US isn’t in this position, and will never be.
In what fantasy land do you think this is remotely achievable? Seriously? Do the lives of Ukrainians fighting and being caught in this conflict mean this little to you, that you are willing to accept continuation of fighting?
Ukraine surrendering is evidently not happening either. Given that Russia is indisputably in the wrong, maybe that’s the side we should put pressure on. Just a thought.
It’s going to happen eventually, as they’re going to run out of recruits before the Russians do. This is like playing a game of chess to the bitter end, only the pieces are real human beings. Hundreds of thousands of them.
Put pressure we do, rest assured.
But, just objectively, what’s the endgame here? I saw a lot of people shit on Russian opposition for not stopping Putin. But, what can Ukraine and the entire world that supports it do? Russian state’s position is simple, it wants Donbas and Luhansk IN Ukraine (=take over it) or there would not be Ukraine at all. What’s the move here? Just supplying Ukraine with weapons won’t do. Accepting Ukraine into NATO is impossible. Going all NATO against Russia is suicidal. Real talk, get some ideas, and quick, on how to get more troops on Ukrainian soil, and make them real. The comments just shitting on Russia and chanting the same words on twitter won’t help - we’ve tried already.
How? Ukraine’s made like a few square kilometers of progress with hundreds of billions of dollars of funding while Russia has just fallen back from their low ground territorial gains to the more easily defensible high ground.
What leverage does Ukraine even have for those demands?
The reason for those small gains instead of hard ones is largely air support. The fighting on the ground is very reminiscent of world war I. That is not a good thing. They may seem like modest gains but in terms of that type of warfare they are pretty huge gains. The problem is that without air support it is going to be a long hard battle.
All that said, it is Ukraine’s territory. Russia could pack up and leave at any time.
How is Ukraine ever going to get air superiority? The West is basically trickle-feeding then equipment.
Yes, that is exactly what I implied.
A ‘Treaty of Versailles’ type solution is not a good idea for durable peace though, harsh reparations, despite any sense they might be ‘fair’, seldom lead to both countries returning to be prosperous democratic countries (and to be clear, neither is a capitulation by Ukraine - that would be seen by Putin as locking in its current gains, with no real incentive not to try again for more despite what the treaty might say).
The best outcome for everyone is if Russia ends up being a genuinely pluralistic democracy (i.e. anyone in Russia can have political views, and the public selects its leadership in free and fair elections). Then Ukraine can normalise relations with Russia, and Russia stops being a threat to democratic institutions across the world as a whole.
I think the best way of thinking about it is not that Ukraine has a Russia problem, but rather that Ukraine and Russia have an oligarch problem (with Putin chief amongst them). Therefore, in a fair world, the oligarchs, and not the Russian people, would pay. It is true that Russians (and indeed some Ukrainians in occupied regions) have been radicalised by the oligarchs, so some kind of deradicalisation would be needed even if the oligarchs disappeared.
Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term. Shorter term solutions could include a negotiated end to hostilities coupled with agreements for Ukraine to join a defensive alliance that the oligarchs wouldn’t consider provoking - which could be followed up by a carrot approach to easing sanctions in exchange for progressive movements towards genuine Russian democracy. This might give oligarchs enough push to take off ramps to cash in what they have plundered already, and slowly be replaced by less corrupt alternatives going forward.
Recovery from oligarchy for Russia might also by costly for Russia though - essential assets plundered from the USSR are now in private hands through crony capitalism; the best solution would be for many of the major ones to go back to or be rebuilt under state ownership, under genuine democratic leadership. But that is likely easier said than done given the state of Russia.
Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term.
This may be true but the negotiations are with a dictator. It’s not like Putin is going to step down so that the problem is resolved peacefully.
Socialism worked in Russia: it dragged hundreds of millions of people out of subsistence farming and turned the USSR into an economic powerhouse. Of course, the collapse of the USSR showed the failings of an aggressively socialist state, but the funny thing is that China already has the solution: a market-based economy with strong state control. Putin doesn’t dare piss off the oligarchs though, so we’re stuck with this crony bullshit.
| Socialism worked in Russia:
Bullshit. Prosperity advanced much more in the west than in the Soviet Union, or anywhere in the soviet bloc. Corruption was rampant. Lying was rampant. People were miserable. Cultural genocide was the name of the game. Subjugated people hated it, and have fared significantly better since getting out. The only people who seem to be nostalgic about the USSR is the Russians, because they lost the ability to benefit from the slave labor of conquered vassal states.
It shouldn’t be surprising that prosperity advanced much more in the already advanced and industrialised west than in a former semi-feudal peasant economy country. The point is that that former semi-feudal peasant economy rose rapidly to become at least a perceived competitor to the west, even with the most destructive war ever waged on a large part of its most fertile and productive land.
Also, corruption and lying? That isn’t specific to the USSR. People are and were miserable in the west too, cultural genocide was and is happening in the west too. Comparing like for like, socialism worked well for the USSR. It was able to heavily industrialise, house populations, create a space program and compete with the USA on the international stage.
| It shouldn’t be surprising that prosperity advanced much more in the already advanced and industrialised west than in a former semi-feudal peasant economy country.
If the Russians wanted to industrialize, then good for them. But they did it off the back of the slave labor of other countries obtained through violent conquest.
Many European countries were decimated in the aftermath of WWII, not just Russia. West Germany, case in point. The West Germans had it significantly better than the East Germans under socialism. France had it better than Poland under socialism. etc… Socialism made peoples lives miserable.
To whit: 85% of Poles think positively of the change to a multiparty system and market economy. 85% and 83% (respectively) of East Germans. 82% and 76% of Czechs. 70% and 69% of Lithuanians. 74% and 71% of Slovaks. The only people who see it as a negative are the Russians. Go figure.
| Also, corruption and lying? That isn’t specific to the USSR.
True, but I never claimed it was. It’s about degree. I’ve heard first hand stories from former soviet residents of how the only way to get a doctor to treat you with anything more than an asprin was to bribe them. That’s an absolutely fucked level of corruption. The idea that that sort of corruption existed in the west at the same time is laughable.
| People are and were miserable in the west too.
Claiming that there are some miserable people in the west misses the point. There are miserable people everywhere, but what % of the population are they?
Research (you know, data), shows that people in South Eastern Europe, Central Eastern Europe and the Baltic states are significantly happier than they were at the fall of the USSR. The only region where this is not true for all countries in the region is the former CIS, which surprise, surprise, includes Russia.
| cultural genocide was and is happening in the west too
Where? Show me a country in the west where your mother tongue is banned? Show me a country in the west where you can be sent to prison for practicing your cultural rituals (assuming you aren’t hurting others ofc)? Don’t compare the mixing of cultures due to increased levels of mobility and the internet to Russiafication, because that’s bullshit.
| socialism worked well for the USSR. It was able to heavily industrialize, house populations, create a space program and compete with the USA on the international stage.
Socialism worked well for a small number of people and only compared to the rest of the soviet bloc. Gorbechev ordered his motorcade to stop at some random small supermarket in the USA to see what it was really like and was initially convinced it was some elaborate CIA setup because he couldn’t believe that the average American had access to a wider range of high quality produce than the party elite in the USSR. American’s weren’t special in that regard. Everyone in the west had the same. Occupied countries would have been just fine with industrialization and housing their populations. All the USSR did from your list was create a space program which did almost nothing for the average person of the USSR, and it was so inept that Vladimir Komarov insisted on an open-casket funeral to force the point.
Ok, so the West Germans and France, who received economic aid from the US who wasn’t ravaged by war, fared better economically than those countries being supported by the Nazi devastated USSR.
I’ve heard first hand accounts from people from the west who talk about the only way to avoid disproportionate targeting by police and other state actors was to be not black or other minority. Not to mention the institutionalised corruption of over the top corporate lobbying. That’s an absolutely fucked level of corruption too.
Of course people are happier now than at the fall of the USSR. The collapse of a nation has a massive and in this case negative instant impact on people’s lives. The fact that things if gone up from there is not surprising.
Black people and Native Americans are still dealing with past and current displacement and discrimination, including a push to eliminate their culture and language. Canada is currently dealing with the results of their very recent genocidal attempts on their First Nations people.
That 'only a small number of people’s argument really doesn’t wash when you factor in the alternative that is capitalism. The very system that is increasing inequality faster and faster since the fall of its former main ideological enemy. It’s true that light industry in the Soviet Union was underdeveloped, people didn’t have as much choice in things like food products or consumer goods, but they were building from a completely different set of conditions. The ability of the west to produce so much that then gets wasted while still having starving, homeless, and undereducated people living in it is not a ringing endorsement of the system.
| Ok, so the West Germans and France, who received economic aid from the US who wasn’t ravaged by war, fared better economically than those countries being supported by the Nazi devastated USSR.
You seem to have forgotten that the point that I am disputing is that socialism worked in the USSR. The USSR was offered aid (the Marshall Plan) but refused it. That’s on socialism.
The simple truth is that the USSR failed its citizens. Non-russian slave nations would have been much better off being autonomous and free to pursue their own ideals and prosperity. Ethnic Russians…well who knows. It’s a messed up culture and that’s hard to break free from, but you could imagine a timeline where they dumped the idea that grinding others under your boot heel was the way to success.
| I’ve heard first hand accounts from people from the west who talk about the only way to avoid disproportionate targeting by police and other state actors was to be not black or other minority. Not to mention the institutionalised corruption of over the top corporate lobbying. That’s an absolutely fucked level of corruption too.
This is whataboutism and actually supports my point. Which was, again, was that socialism did not work in the USSR. If the west had all that ‘fucked up level of corruption too’, then it still out-performed socialism on pretty much all metrics. But regardless, selecting a disadvantaged minority in one country and then trying to create a false equivalence to the majority in the USSR is exactly that, a false equivalence.
| Of course people are happier now than at the fall of the USSR. The collapse of a nation has a massive and in this case negative instant impact on people’s lives. The fact that things if gone up from there is not surprising.
Oh, they were unhappy then! I have family who lived through it, and they HATED being part of the USSR. It was a miserable time of poverty, fear and suffering for them. The USSR was an authoritarian, totalitarian, one-party, state that had Orwellian propaganda, a cult of personality and in which the Russian ethic group had an overbearing sense of racial superiority. The state also carried out repression, torture and purges on scales that were genocidal. All of these traits are common with fascism, but the Russians claim to be anti-fascist. It’s odd.
Non-russians much prefer being free and out from the Russian fascist boot heel.
| Black people and Native Americans are still dealing with past and current displacement and discrimination, including a push to eliminate their culture and language. Canada is currently dealing with the results of their very recent genocidal attempts on their First Nations people.
I never claimed that other countries were perfect, I just did a comparison and found the USSR to be severely wanting in terms of whether it worked. I think it’s a good thing that First Nations people are finally getting their language, culture and rights recognised and respected. Maybe Russia could contemplate doing the same and leaving the Ukrainians alone; as opposed to, for example, the Russian man who recently THREW A 10 YEAR OLD UKRAINIAN CHILD OFF A BRIDGE for speaking Ukrainian in Germany.
| That 'only a small number of people’s argument really doesn’t wash when you factor in the alternative that is capitalism. The very system that is increasing inequality faster and faster since the fall of its former main ideological enemy. It’s true that light industry in the Soviet Union was underdeveloped, people didn’t have as much choice in things like food products or consumer goods, but they were building from a completely different set of conditions. The ability of the west to produce so much that then gets wasted while still having starving, homeless, and undereducated people living in it is not a ringing endorsement of the system.
I’m not claiming capitalism is perfect, far from it and I think the USA goes too way far the other way. But the point (again!) is that Socialism did not work in the USSR. People suffered, literally starved by the millions, and did not have autonomy, the freedom to speak either their language or their thoughts. People were abducted by the state never to be seen or heard of again, connections to community and land were broken, and countries other than russia were worse off than if they had been free to pursue their own path under a democratically elected government.
If you want to see a state where socialism has worked, look at Norway, not Russia.
Give the native Americans back their territory. Nothing less.
I’m not sure Putin has any say in that, but I like the spirit!
Okay then the war would go on and on until your government collapsed. A peace agreement is actually good here given that they just showed they were unable to reclaim much land with their counter offensive.
They’ve shown no such thing. Stop believing everything you hear in the media.
I’m literally basing this on bloodthirsty weapon manufacturer adjacent media, who’s interests are unaligned with saying things are going badly. Even they are getting cold feet on the war, or saying there never was an offensive or the offensive hasn’t really started yet.
Very true. Russia (well, putin) has shown over and over that he can’t be trusted, he will stab you in the back and he will murder you.
Hell, the entire land grab from Ukraine was going against accords made where Russia promised to allow Ukraine to exist as a sovereign nation and Russia would get all their nukes. Russia got the nukes and theb went on to invade and steal Crimea and then to just drop all pretence and invade the entire Ukraine.
Just give some shitty transparent excuses, mumble something about non existent Nazis, and just steal lands.
So no, you can’t make deals with Putin
However, Ukraine is in a tight spot. They still rely on the west (and mostly United States)for the Weapons and gear they use on the war. Russia has the Republican party in their pocket and if the Republican party (or worse trump) wins the election, they’ll at the least stop all Help and likely hand the Ukraine to Russia on a silver platter.
This means they basically gotta gain as much as possible before the US elections, which is why they’re grinding on so much without the proper air support they’ll start having at the end of the year. It sucks, but it’s the situation they’re in.
It’s impressive though to see how much they advance without air support. Slava Ukraine!
Russia is a terrorist country. Terrorists can’t be negotiated with. #SlavaUkraini
Russia can’t be accepted back into the international community until Putin is in a jail cell or in the ground.
I mean, by that logic we might as well dump everyone who’s started a major land war recently into the ground.
Iraq, Ukraine, Afghanistan… ah fuck, eh?
US is still there though, being at the source of the death of 4.5 Millions humans since 2003! (washington post article).
Sorry to see you downvoted, but in ukraine topics you can’t have any other opinion then West=Good or you are a Putin apologist. We are back at cold war red scare disscusion levels, no nuace is allowed.
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What about, what about, what about
And? Should we not point hypocricy and double standards because it hurts your feelings?
This isn’t hypocrisy or a double standard. Your argument is unironically “because America did bad things we must let bad things happen everywhere.”
No one here is saying America smells like roses. Does that mean we can’t try to do good? Must we stand idle and let Ukrainians die when we could help them?
Russia can’t be accepted back into the international community
Veraticus
our argument is unironically “because America did bad things we must let bad things happen everywhere.”
NO, idiot (sorry, sometime, let’s call a cat, a cat). Your “community” would have no sense and credibility as they still have one of the biggest warmonger at their table. This is not a stupid “whataboutism” argument that you are all blindly paroting! So sndmn@lemmy.ca’s comment is stupid.
We, european, should not supply UA and follow USA’s plan in their proxy war. We should instead really work on a diplomatic level. BUT by playing the stupid rats we are, Putin has not reason to listen.
No tankie, no Putin-sucker, i’m just plain rational and honest dude.
No… you’re a tankie and Putin sucker 🙂
No, it’s pointing out a precedent set by the USA and allies that wholesale slaughter of innocents is acceptable to the international community. Russia’s invasion, whether legitimate or not, is no more spurious in its reasons than so many of the USA’s ones over the last how ever many decades.
That doesn’t make this one right, it just points out that the “rules based order” is a falsehood. Otherwise every US president in recent to not so recent history would also have an arrest warrant out for them, and the US would be sanctioned into the ground.
I generally have a hard time believing the US intends to do good outside of padding the pockets of corporate lobbyists and politicians. I’m not a fan of the whole “until the last Ukrainian” war that’s happening either.
This seems totally unrelated to my point.
Even if this is true, we can still try to do the right thing. And we should try.
Most of those actual deaths were Muslims killing Muslims. Deaths caused by United States soldiers are comparatively low.
For example, the Iraqi body count website tracks 210,000 civilians killed between 2003 and 2020.
According to your article, it cites US-led wars in countries such as Pakistan, Libya, Yemen and Syria. However, the United States did not launch a war in any of those countries and certainly did not fight a war in Pakistan which is a US ally.
The Washington Post article as well as research from Brown University has Lucy affiliated anyone who has died outside of the expected peacetime death rate in any country in Africa in the Middle East to be attributable to the United States which is, frankly completely unfair. ISIL aka the Islamic State for instance killed tens of thousands of people, yet those deaths are attributed to the United States. Which is completely crazy!
While I was completely against the 2003 Iraq war, and even March and protest against it, the truth of the matter is that Saddam was a complete bastard, the bath is party were fascist, and destroying them created enormous power vacuum which resulted in chaos death and destruction. However, this was probably an inevitability Saddam wasn’t going to last forever and had no system of governance to transfer leadership to someone else. The Middle East has been well known for centuries as a chaotic and violent region of the world and Sunni and Shiite Muslims have been at war with each other since time immemorial.
Who was it that was selling Saddam sarin gas and anthrax again?
Maybe take a good look at that last paragraph you wrote and think about why you blame the conflicts in the middle east on a reductive basis of “they are savages” rather than looking at the actual historical context of what has caused instability in the region.
Seriously, this entire comment is just a racist write-off of the middle east that is completely devoid of any true consideration of history. Ignorance personified.
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Of course. They’re white.
“my genociders are good, your genociders are bad”. Whataboutism at its best. Lovely.
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The ccp is not China.
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While I’d like to believe this, if Putin comes to some peaceful agreement with Ukraine, the international community will just wait until people are distracted by the next big news story and then let Putin back in.
I’d rather be cynical and happily surprised than optimistic and disappointed.
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simply said, a pidor.
isn’t that some kind of Turkish pizza?
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Foundations of geopolitics? Fuck that, more war. More Ukrainians will die, and that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
More Ukrainians will die, and that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
I genuinely can’t tell if you are saying this ironically considering you are all over this thread defending Russia’s invasion.
He’s making fun of all the libs/fascists who want to kill all the Ukrainians in the hope of owning Putin, while sitting comfortably on their gamer chairs in their mom’s basement.
I would understand if at least 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces personnel would be comprised of western volunteers talking about terrorists and no negotiations.
But that is not a thing. So looks a bit ballsy, cause one would think that in a rather apocalyptic war on Ukraine’s soil, after they’ve reclaimed large swathes of territory, they’d be interested in some reduction of monthly casualties and rebuilding various capacities on that territory. Which a ceasefire would provide.
I mean, even if you are right, you are eagerly advocating for spending mobilized Ukrainian lives on a costly offensive.
I’m only repeating what Ukrainians say. They know any concession with ruzzian terrorists now will only lead to ruzzian terrorists regrouping and reloading to perfom more genocide in a few months/years all over again. The fascist moscow regime needs to be stopped NOW.
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Murdering, kidnapping and brainwashing Ukrainian children is genocide. Attempting to exterminate the Ukrainian people is genocide.
Murdering, kidnapping and brainwashing Ukrainian children is genocide.
Then we’ll have to introduce degrees of genocide.
Attempting to exterminate the Ukrainian people is genocide.
Which is not happening.
I block all russian trolls.
You don’t fucking know which things the words you use mean. And since you still dare voice your opinions on real world - blocking me is an important first step at stopping that.
“Slava Ukraini” is fascists slogan used by, and mainly associated with, the mass murderers of hundreds of thousands of Poles and Jews. I guess that doesn’t count as terrorism in your worldview.
No, it’s neither fascist, nor mainly associated with mass murderers to anyone except redfash
Nope
Do you think the USA is a terrorist country? If not, why not?
Slava Ukraini was literally the battle cry of the OUN, which collaborated in the holocaust. Find a different motto.
I block all ruscist trolls. You’re up!
The worst part about this is that you are a real person with a brain.
Wait till you hear about the origins of Volkswagen.
Oh boy, more good reasons to hate cars and automotive corporations!
Oh I know. I have a massive ax to grind on how little denazification happened after the war, especially in west Germany.
SLAVA UKRAINI tell your czar putler his time is up. :)
YOU SURE SHOWED HIM. PUTLER RESIGNED AFTER READING THIS SCATHING COMMENT.
Putler? But wouldn’t that make you like him if he was like Hitler? Are you sure you support Ukraine?
Wtf kind of word vomit was that?
K scratched liberal
.
Facts
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So from having had a few exchanges with pro Russian accounts on Lemmy (which seems to be infested with a few very active ones) this is a summary of their arguments:
- “Ukraine is Nazi”
- “Well far right parties got a total of under 6% of the vote, and they elected a Jewish man president”
- “yeah but Bandera and whatabout America”
- “Ukraine killed ethnic Russians”
- “A huge percentage of their population are ethnic Russians, including in government, and they are fine, and were until the Russian invasion. And now it’s Russia that has killed, maimed and raped more ethnic Russians, including civilians, than Ukraine every did or even could. Including their own people thorough incompetence and corruption”.
- “Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America”
- “Ukraine is fighting because they are forced to by their colonial masters, the USA and NATO, and Ukrainians will keep dying so long as they keep being armed”
- “Actually > 90% of the population wants to continue fighting for their country back, so what you’re basically saying is you think Ukrainians should be abandoned to Russian enslavement”
- “Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America”
- “NATO and USA are colonialists and this is just more colonialism”
- “Actually both Russia and China are actual, bone fide land empires, with ethnic minorities that are forced to live like colonized people - including doing the fighting for Russia while their families back home live in misery and squalor and Putin’s Mafia collect mansions, private jets and yachts”
- “Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America”
How were their ethnic Russians fine when this shit was happening?
I’d ask you to cite your sources but this is all sensationalized. Also, nice summary on Bandera, and the Azov fighters everyone keeps shuffling around to parliaments and fundraisers.
If you’re all so blood thirsty go put some skin in the game.
Do you believe the Ukrainian army started shelling Donetsk without any reason?
You mean the US backed, far-right led coup?
No I mean armed insurrection taking over government buildings at gunpoint.
I don’t know what country you’re from but I don’t think there are many that are going to keep the kids gloves on for long in such a situation
Yes, when there was insurection in France and the Paris Commune was created, the government sent the army and killed everyone.
It was a bad thing when France did it, and it was also a bad thing when Ukraine did it. Monarchists and fascists are just equally disgusting.
Yeah I’m sure if you go through human history you can find some insurrections you support and others you don’t :)
Perhaps you’ll want to pick another example though, as this particular one was started because their government capitulated to a foreign invader while Parisians wanted to fight. So just a little bit of irony there
No one was shelling anything until Russia sent their “little green men” into Ukraine. Just saying…
It was an invasion. Invasions are wrong. That should be the beginning and end of the debate.
I mean, there’s usually more to say than just that. I don’t think no discussion is the answer.
I agree, but ignoring who started the war and who is the one actively invading who, while having already occupied territory from a past war, not too long ago, isn’t right either. Doubting the motivations of the agressor with a past in agression is important. And yes, “TheWest”™ does it too, but Ukraine, who revolted their puppet government (as told to me by people I know from there) in 2014 and having been invaded as a result, isn’t really an agressor to other countries.
I’m from northern Spain, we have had our fair share of civil revolts, the sides I support lost, and I would be SO angry with portugal or france if they had militarily intervened. Several international volunteers came to help in several of them, but volunteers != an official invasion.
I honestly feel like several commies hate “TheWest”™, and by proxy anyone that wants to be related to them so they just eat up the “There’s Nazis in power in Ukraine” speech Putin used.
And yeah, context is important, this is what I know about the whole thing, told to me by my partner, whose family lives in Ukraine and lightly searched by me:
There was a revolt in Ukrained around 2013, where they took away the alleged corrupt puppet president that was manipulating elections and funnelling tons of money to Russia. He has to flee the country when people went to his home, and he apparently had a golden toilet. So after that elections were done and another dude was put in power.
They started to de-russiafy some stuff because they were fed up of russia’s influence in a separate sovereign country, and as a result Russia invaded in 2014. They took Crimea, taking the home away from several Crimean Tatars who were originally from there. Ukraine tried to get international help but since “TheWest”™ didn’t want a full scale war against Russia, they kinda forced Ukraine to give up Crimea, since they obviously don’t have enough resources to defend alone.
Zelensky, an actor, made a TV show where he starred as a good professor that suddenly became president, and fought against the big bad of the country, corruption and oligarchs. People were quite happy by the idea he was promoting, and after popular demand he tried for elections, going into power with a huge majority. He started to de-russiafy again and try to gain more economical support of “TheWest”™, which are the countried whom they have most economical relations. He wanted to join both the EU and NATO, and Putin REALLY disliked that, since he felt threatened. Suddenly, war.
This time, “TheWest”™ decided to support Ukraine more heavily for what I’m sure are their personal reasons, but it’s important to see who the aggresor is. That the US made a bridge for Zelensky offering NATO to pressure Russia we don’t know, maybe, but the fact that a sovereign country is forcing another sovereign country against treaties that the second one wants is clear.
From now on, all the new info that I get on the subject is passed through all the before mentioned context, assuming that all info is completely tampered with. All of what I told you was stuff I knew about before this war, so it’s not like it was propaganda, for me.
As an addendum, some of the family members of my partner work for the military (tech job), and told us that there had been issues with russian agents in Donbass with removing the Ukranian passport to people and giving them the russian one, I believe that the military of every country is fed tons of propaganda, so idk about this one.
What do we also know about Russia? There are several indications that they tempered with international elections by creating fake internet movements and promoting disruptive real ones as we have seen with the whole Trump fiasco. If they did so mcuh effort for countries that are that far, I have zero ounces of doubt that the manipulation strategies Russia actively performed pre-war, in a non-NATO coutry, were a lot more aggresive. Again, commies and tankies don’t trust anything about “TheWest”™ so to them all the manipulation reports hold no weight, it’s clear that there is a divide in ideology here around how Russia operates things.
I don’t have any reputable sources to support my context because I can’t bother to search for them, I’m just browsing the web while working like all of us lazy asses, but given this context I have, it’s really hard for me and tons of people living in “TheWest”™ to trust anything Russia says, since they have a really long history of tampering with their neighbouring countries (Yes so does USA but this is about Ukraine and Russia).
Well then discuss.
What justifies the torture, rape, pillage, kidnapping, Russia has inflicted on Ukraine?
Mmmm… nothing. Putin is just an ultranationalist asshole on top of being a kleptocrat asshole.
Hey, I didn’t say the discussion had to be long, and this is a pretty cut and dried case.
Edit: Now, consider for contrast the invasion of neutral Iceland by Britain in WWII.
I take it you had to deal with the Hexbears? Idiots.
Such a worthless use of brain cells. Imagine being the product of billions of years of evolution and becoming that.
They said talking on a Lemmy.world post lmfao
Didn’t lemmy.ca defed with Hexbear because someone called (in jest) for death to landlords while Canada experiences it’s biggest housing crisis ever and rents are rising rapidly YoY solely because landlords, who otherwise deliver no intrinsic value in their position, found a way to make more money from the increased demand?
No, that wasn’t the reason and if it’s the only one you can think of you have no idea how toxic and disgusting the hexbear community is. I hate landlords too but these people are really taking it so much further than joking about dead landlords.
That was one of the big reasons made in the post about Hexbear defed.
The other ones were nebulous concerns about Hexbear comments in other instances… Which, by definition, is the responsibility of those other instances.
The idea that you can’t judge anyone by actions not in your personal instance is just such terminally online idiocy. Trolls always seem shocked that their behavior might actually follow them around rather than being conveniently compartmentalized so they can start their trolling fresh before burning out a new instance.
It’s the instance’s responsibility for policing it’s own instance.
And defederation was the action that the instance decided to policy them. If users from that instance take up the majority of their moderation effort, taking into account that instance owners are volunteers and paying for the instance, it does not surprise me.
That all sounds like brigading emotional nonsense. In fact, there were strong reasons for Russia to invade. It is probably true that Russia was manipulated into invading, it had no choice because of strategic decisions made by Ukraine. It’s a shame none of the people you talked to were able to argue the issues sensibly.
Lol Ukraine strategically decided not to surrender their territory, thus manipulating the peaceful Russians to invade
It is probably true that Russia was manipulated into invading, it had no choice because of strategic decisions made by Ukraine.
Of course Russia had a choice. Not invading a country is the easiest thing to do. I do it every day, and I have nowhere near the power and resources that Vlad Putin does.
Exactly why the choice is so easy for you.
What do you think would’ve happened if Russia hadn’t invaded?
Why should Russia strategically be required to invade exactly?
I’ve never heard a cogent argument on this point.
It’s because Russia sees NATO as a threat and wants to take control of Ukraine to keep buffer states on the west side. Also, to keep it’sblack sea fleet safe. Why it happened now and not sooner or later - nobody knows. The official reasoning, of course, is bullshit, just like with any other war. Not the worst one, though.
Most people haven’t. We all have a filter bubble.
Here is a first draft, my attempt to provide the missing context. Please leave comments on anything bad or missing you notice. https://lemmy.ml/post/4848742
That is just a list of Russian propaganda points. There is no evidence for any of it.
Ask Jens Stoltenburg. He just fucked up and bragged about how he forced them into it.
Okay, but you didn’t actually answer the question, you just pointed to the geopolitical equivalent of blurry sasquatch footage. What’s the strategic logic?
M.A.D.
Seems like a really dishonest question when you’re pretending not to understand such a basic concept. Unless you want me to believe that you’re an idiot or something?
The MAD play would be to stay within their borders and make sure their nukes and delivery systems are all in good working order. Escalating at great cost and with a risk to internal stability isn’t very good from a MAD perspective.
Agreed but here we are. They’re now arming their fascist puppet state with ATACMS and installing nukes in Finland, which is just eliminating MAD by reducing the time that Russia can respond.
“whatabout America” - “nooo you can’t just call me out on hypocrisy, it makes me look bad”
Whataboutism is literally a logical fallacy. We are talking about Russia, so talk about Russia.
You have no right to judge someone for what you yourself are guilty of.
guess we are all fucked then, all world powers are guilty of vile shit
Dismissing something for being a fallacy is also a fallacy. There are historical, political, social, and economic reasons things happen, and sometimes it pays to put things in context. Limiting the discussion to the thing happening NOW and only NOW doesn’t allow for a better understanding of the events.
Also, someone pointing out hypocrisy of other nations shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing, especially if it’s pointing out the hypocrisy of the most powerful and influential nation to ever exist. You can see based on past events such as the war on terror and endless drone striking of civilians how governments could expect that to be the standard way of operating. That doesn’t make it right, only that military intervention has been and continues to be legitimised politically by the international community.
Dismissing something for being a fallacy is also a fallacy
Lol
Also, someone pointing out hypocrisy of other nations shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing, especially if it’s pointing out the hypocrisy of the most powerful and influential nation to ever exist.
I didn’t realize Ukraine was the most powerful nation to ever exist.
Bruh are you being willfully ignorant about that last point or do you legitimately believe I was saying Ukraine is the most powerful nation to ever exist?
You are implying that this war is somehow orchestrated by the United States, since you are whatabouting that way.
The United States is not a belligerent here. Ukraine is the one getting invaded, and Russia is doing the invading - that is the situation. Every time you whatabout to the US you imply that Ukrainians have no agency and no rights to decide for themselves or defend themselves, or are somehow under the control of Joe Biden or some shit (hint: they aren’t - polling in Ukraine is very clear that a large majority want to keep fighting until Russia is gone from their country).
So yeah, “bruh”, I’m pointing out that when we talk about Russia and Ukraine, let’s talk about Russia and Ukraine. If you want to talk about the wider geostrategic implications of the USA, Europe, NATO, and various other nations providing aid to Ukraine, let’s dance:
I suppose your moral grounds aren’t shaken by Russia seeking help in North Korea and Iran to continue killing Ukrainian civilians? That is an actual whatabout.
Or perhaps that NATO and the EU are voluntary alliances that nations are free to leave at any moment (and don’t want in the case of NATO because of Russian aggression). Very nice, “bruh”.
You trolls are so predictable.
The person you replied to, saying whataboutism is a literal fallacy, brought up the fact that whenever anyone criticises the US in relation to current events it gets dismissed as whataboutism. I was making a point that hypocrisy in regards to the US, which is the most powerful nation in the world, helps no one, and only hinders the ability for governments to operate.
I’m not saying Ukrainians have no agency, although they are indebted to the west now, I am saying that the US is using Ukraine and spinning it as a moral good. The fact that it aligns with what the Ukrainian government wants is not necessary.
I don’t support killing civilians. I don’t support killing conscripted people. I don’t support killing volunteers who joined because they were struggling in a system that is designed to entice the poor to fight. I don’t even support killing those who joined because their mind is warped to hyper patriotism by propaganda due to the system they live in. I would rather see peace talks, collaboration in demining and rebuilding, and genuine interest in what the people of the region want. That Russia is seeking support is not surprising seeing the west supporting Ukraine, that doesn’t make it right, that just makes it predictable.
Accusation of whataboutism is just a hiding place for hypocrites.
Pointing out supposed hypocrites is just a hiding place for people uninterested in actual ideas.
Discussion is furthered by pointing out contradictions in positions. Hypocrisy is one of these contradictions.
There’s a reason Western Europe focuses on the Nazis in the context of the Holocaust: the Nazis never saw the Western Europeans as a stain on the Earth like they did the Jews and the Slavs. Russians don’t need to point to Jews to claim Nazism: they can point directly to the treatment of ethnically Russian Slavs during WW2 and the plans that Nazi Germany had for the eradication of Slavs.
Russia doesn’t need to point at how Ukraine treats Jews because to Russia, the Holocaust is dwarfed in societal impact by the issues that motivated Operation Barbarossa. The Russians lost 19 million Russian civilians in the war, why would they care about the Jews?
Nevermind that minorities in China get so many advantages it’s actually silly how much affirmative action goes on. Provinces dominated by minorities get significantly more funding per capita and even get loss-leading infrastructure projects like the Tibet and Xinjiang railways. Students from minorities get additional bonuses on gaokao (basically SAT, but imagine if schools didn’t look at anything else). Minorities are exempt from family planning policies and get massive interest-free loans for starting businesses. They get proportional representation in government. Hell, there are 55 minority groups in China making up 8% of the population.
In the army? The prevalence of rural populations in the army has been observed AROUND THE WORLD. It’s a function of rural communities being rather poor and underserved by governments in general, as well as the lack of economic opportunities that living on a farm provides. In fact, the entire notion of the underserved countryside is what allowed communism to rise in Russia and China.
Improved infrastructure and better access to education is not the win you think it is. Whether infrastructure and education is good or not depends on what you do with it. If you use your infrastructure to connect unruly provinces to your center of power in an effort to better exert control, then the infrastructure becomes a net-negative for the people on the receiving end. As an example, I’m sure nobody sane enough would claim that the US building the railroad was positive for native americans. Likewise, if you use your education to indoctrinate people, then better educational opportunities go hand in hand with increased oppression.
So… You’d rather people be poor and uneducated than wealthy and educated? Huh?
I didn’t say that at all. What I did say is that you shouldn’t take China providing infrastructure and education as a purely philantrophic endeavour.
improved infrastructure and better access to education is not the win you think it is
What exactly do you think you’re saying? That infrastructure and education are bad?
minorities in China get so many advantages it’s actually silly how much affirmative action goes on
You claim China is engaging in affirmative action to strengthen its minorities. I’m pointing out that the actions China is taking can just as easily be turned against the minorities you claim are helped by China.
The actions such as… Giving them additional points on gaokao? Interest free business loans? Exemption from family planning policy? The horror.
25% ish of the Russian population live in huts and shit in holes in outhouses for a lack of plumbing (mostly ethnic minorities), all while the ruling Mafia collects yachts and private jets, and launches wars.
I’m not saying there isn’t wealth inequality elsewhere, but how about a bit of perspective here. Russia cannot actually conscript too many ethnic Russians or use them as cannon fodder, since that is the only ethnicity in Russia that matters politically, since they are the middle class. Instead they send the colonized people, who happen to be those who shit in holes for a lack of plumbing.
Poor people are overrepresented in the army? No way!
It’s a conscript army. They shouldn’t be.
You say that, but conscription always has exceptions, which usually include having an important job or going to university, which would presumably skew the result towards more poor people in the army. There’s also corruption of course.
The Russians lost 19 million Russian civilians in the war, why would they care about the Jews?
Nevermind the fact that it was Russia itself that treated (and keeps treating) its soldiers as cannon fodder
I’d recommend that you read a more insightful commentary on Red Army practices during WW2 rather than following Nazi propaganda from that period. David Glantz’ work is particularly insightful.
Either way, those are 19 million civilians. That isn’t military dead, that’s civilians.
One thing they always forget to mention is the USSR was allied to Nazi Germany in order to partition Poland.
No doubt the Soviets suffered greatly in WW2, and contributed greatly to the allied victory. On the other hand they did not do it alone, and they certainly did not expect to have to fight the Germans at all, at least not at that point.
So? The Great Powers had decided on a policy of appeasement against Nazi Germany. What exactly would you have proposed the USSR do? They signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact prior to the war for a reason.
Without the Eastern Front, Europe was lost. Hitler only launched Operation Barbarossa because he thought the Western Front was all but won. Continental Europe was under German control and the UBoats were locking down most of the Atlantic, meanwhile imports of Russian materials was sustaining the German war economy (similarly, imports of American materials was sustaining Japan’s war in China and the Pacific)… Of course, it turns out that dividing your forces and taking on Russia in the winter aren’t the best ideas, but at the time Germany wanted energy independence and the Caucasus was seen as an easier target than the Middle East (which at the time out produced Romania but wasn’t yet the oil superpower it is today).
That’s all well and good, but that’s never taught at all to Russians and ignored by tankies.
And if you actually read your dumb narrative, your first paragraph is contradicted by your second. You really need to work on your story.
Here’s the truth: the USSR, like Nazi Germany, was an authoritarian expansionist nightmare that was happy to get Poland for free. They only fight the Nazis because they had to. And Stalin was a shit strategist.
Lol right? I mean why would literally anyone trust Putin at this point?
I’m kind of confused why Prigozhin did what he did, even. He knew Putin was going to try to kill him afterwards, I had assumed he had his own play but I guess not.
IIRC, I believe Putin found the family members of the people in his chain of command and threatened with their safety.
Hasn’t he had pretty good relations with, like, literally all of BRICS?
So good he didn’t even show up there at the last conference in person because of pretty legitimate concerns they’d arrest him? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/putin-remotely-attends-brics-summit-in-south-africa-while-facing-war-crimes-warrant
Oh no! Not international law!
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Quite dishonest to equate “not wanting Ukraine invaded by Russia” with being pro NATO.
Quite dishonest to equate “not wanting Ukraine invaded by Russia” with being pro NATO.
Quite dishonest to equate “criticizing Zelensky and this US proxy war” with being tankie or russian terrorist.
That’s crazy, the level of accusatory reversal.
You might have mixed up something. Neither I or anybody on this direct thread said anything about terrorism or tankies. We didn’t even mention zelensky.
Either you’re the crazy one or you have been called those this enough time as to lose track.
BTW, it couldn’t be a pretty war if, you know, Russia didn’t start a war… small detail I know
Neither I or anybody on this direct thread said anything about terrorism
just ctrl+f “terrorist”
As a clarification, since searching the page will give you the wrong idea, direct thread is referring to this direct chain of comments, not the whole post.
You are the first one on this come thread. Other threads sure talk about that. But not this one. So yeah… double down in your mistakes, the Putin’s way.
take it. You just demonstrated your dishonesty here. There’s like at least, 10 occurences of this word in this thread.
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Remind me again what did RAND Corp outline about US agenda against Russia in 2019 documents, or US ex-VP Dick Cheney tell us what NATO’s vision about Russia is (spoiler: balkanisation),
Dunno, but not really necessary to know about it when the statement being challenged is “not wanting Ukraine invaded by Russia”.
how Biden, after pumping $40B into Ukraine, is asking for $60B more from GOP to use Ukraine as a condom to try fuck with Russia till the “last Ukrainian”, causing deaths of both Ukrainians and Russians
Don’t really care about US but isn’t your yearly military spending like 1Trillion? I looked it up and in 2016 the budget was $639.86B, while in 2023 seems to be $797.B, Accounting for inflation from 2016 to 2023 (Core inflation averaged 3.09% per year between 2016 and 2023 (vs all-CPI inflation of 3.52%), for an inflation total of 23.74%.) $639.86B then is $791,76B now, so accouting for inflation This year’s military budget is not higher than the one in 2016. I picked that year because as an outsider I don’t think the US was doing anything special by then, no covid no Ukraining war, nothing. So basically the US is not spending more than usual for the military, and although I think that’s too much in general, blaming the war maybe isn’t the best approach.
It took me 5 mins to find these numbers and do the math.
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Who cares? Russia sucks. Remember when they were the bad guy in every movie and every American was anti-Russia? What the fuck happened to the GOP that they’re all sucking Russian dick now?
Putin is a wannabe dictator fucking with Europe, America, and Canada with troll farms while invading non-aggressive neighbours and should be crushed.
Yes, let’s all go back to the McCarthyist days where everyone was secretly a ebil commie, why don’t you go the frontlines and see how ‘enthusiastic’ the Ukrainian conscripts are about the war, if you hate Russia so much
The United States made Russia into what it is today. Yeltsin’s campaign was heavily funded be the US under Clinton, and Putin was hand picked by Yeltsin as his successor.
Please go ahead and tell yourself what it says and why that makes it ok to kill Ukrainian civilians.
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No. Just no. Russia is invading. You can’t, in good faith, blame the invaded for the casualties. The same way you can’t tell a woman that she got beaten because she refused to have sex.
I can understand it’s not a black and white issue, but this is the laziest propaganda imaginable. You want to stop the casualties right now? Russia retreats to their territory at this very moment. It’s that simple. Keep trying to invade the country won’t reduce the casualties. Now you will take your whataboutism card to say it’s your time to do some killing. Or say that US allying with Ukraine and Russia taking my force is basically the same.
You think the invasion is rightful so the deaths are in there fault of the defenders? Happy that Russia reports low civilian death ratio? Fantastic, you have now used the same argument that all other atrocities used. I’ll also oppose the ones you oppose BTW not only the ones that fit my agenda.
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Mali. The domain is free.
I thought it was Machine Learning lmao.
People really want to see more Ukrainians die, huh?
I personally don’t want anyone to die, but it’s not like Ukraine asked Russia to invade them, steal their land and kill their people.
You don’t want anyone to die, but that’s effectively what this is calling for.
But hey, it’s just Slavs killing Slavs, right?
Ukraine wanted war and did its best to provoke it for America. This is the inevitable consequence.
Ukraine, with the resources and military they had, wanted war with a nuclear power with a much larger military? Was anyone in Ukraine even talking about war in 2014 when Russia invaded Crimea and started that shit in the east? Where they so full of themselves in 2022 that they though they could take on a nuclear power?
Something doesn’t fit here.
Russia invaded Ukraine. Not the US, not NATO, not the EU, not China, not the bogeyman: it was Russia.
You should stop painting Russia as if they are a bunch of amateurs that can’t control themselves. They weren’t baited or provoked. They looked at the political situation in Ukraine and made the decision to invade, twice. Putin isn’t a moron, so presenting him as being played by the US or having no other choices makes no sense.
What’s happening is the consequence of a country invading another in order to expand their borders. Anyone (and I mean anyone) doing that should pay a heavy price so they learn the lesson.
Ukraine, with the resources and military they had, wanted war with a nuclear power with a much larger military?
Not only did they then, they still want to now. Are you not following this war? Several rounds of peace talks have been spurned by Ukraine now. When we say “they” of course we mean the fascist dictatorship that’s running the place, not all the people.
Was anyone in Ukraine even talking about war in 2014
Of course? More specifically they wanted to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen” and so forth, according to Andriy Biletzky for example. This is the type of guy who got put in power after the Nazi coup.
when Russia invaded Crimea and started that shit in the east?
I’m afraid you’ve been taken for a fool here. That’s not what happened. Independent Crimea invited Russia in to protect its citizens from the Nazi pogroms that had already started directly after the coup. Here you can read the people who live there’s polling. Around 15% considered themselves to be Ukrainian. Over 50% wanted a union with Russia compared with 17% with Ukraine.
Later a Pew research poll from 2014 found that 91% of Crimeans considered the referendum free and fair, and 88% felt Kyiv should accept the results.
Something doesn’t fit here.
Indeed. You should be annoyed at the people who lied to you.
Russia invaded Ukraine. Not the US, not NATO, not the EU, not China, not the bogeyman: it was Russia.
The USA overthrew Ukraine’s democracy and popularised a Nazi based ultranationalism. Not Russia or anyone else.
You should stop painting Russia as if they are a bunch of amateurs that can’t control themselves. They weren’t baited or provoked. They looked at the political situation in Ukraine and made the decision to invade, twice. Putin isn’t a moron, so presenting him as being played by the US or having no other choices makes no sense.
This again is just a product of propagandising and manipulation. I understand it’s hard to accept the scale of the lies, I really do. But accept it you must if you want to consider yourself to be a rational well informed person.
What would it take for me to convince you? A confession from the head of NATO or something?
Well you’re in luck. Stoltenberg confessed a couple of days ago.
During a speech at the EU Parliament’s foreign affairs committee on Thursday, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg clearly and repeatedly acknowledged that Putin made the decision to invade Ukraine because of fears of NATO expansionism.
The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn’t sign that.
The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.
So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders.
In reality Stoltenberg is just stating a well established fact: contrary to the official western narrative, Putin invaded Ukraine not because he is evil and hates freedom but because no great power ever allows foreign military threats to amass on its borders — including the United States. That’s why so many western analysts and officials spent years warning that NATO’s actions were going to provoke a war, and yet when war broke out we were slammed with a tsunami of mass media propaganda repeating over and over and over again that this was an “unprovoked invasion”.
What’s happening is the consequence of a country invading another in order to expand their borders. Anyone (and I mean anyone) doing that should pay a heavy price so they learn the lesson.
What’s happening is that the US has gotten its latest war that it’s been pushing for for decades. It’s always the USA, always has been, except this time, right?
A few points:
0:
First things first:
- Russia invaded Ukraine.
- They can stop the war at any time they want.
1:
The peace terms Russia offers is the equivalent of me telling you that I’m going to beat the shit out of you if you don’t give me a room of your house and stop talking to your neighbours. Obviously you won’t accept my terms, not because you want to fight with me, but because my terms are not acceptable to you.
I really fail to see why would anyone support these type of invasions where one side just annexes land because they can. Would you support it too if it was the US? I wouldn’t.
2:
The “little green men” - later confirmed by Putin to be Russian - were not invited by anyone. A group of people inviting someone to annex them is also not a justification for an invasion. That’s not how international law works nor would you accept that justification from other countries.
If it walks like and invasion and quacks like an invasion, then it’s an invasion. Let’s not pretend otherwise. Putin’s own version of history even justifies all this because it’s all “Russian land” anyway.
3:
I really don’t like Nazis, Ukrainians or not. The problem with invading because of them is that Russia has the same type of crowd, which following the logic promoted people like you means that any country can now invade Russia, as they also have a “nazi problem”, not only in political parties, but also in Ultra groups and “philosophers”. Well, unlike you, I don’t think we should be invading countries because they have some ultra nationalistic groups… so I’m not going to support any invasion of Russia either.
I’d also like to remind you that the far right party had less than 2% of the votes in the 2019 election. If less than 2% is a signal that the country is full of nazis, then maybe I don’t know how % work.
The now very famous Azov Battalion (thanks Russia for creating some martyrs, like wtf?) was created in May 2014. What’s the context though? In February, Russia took over Crimea and started shit in the east, confirmed by people like Igor Girkin. The bloated, weak, and corrupt Ukrainian army was shitting their pants and the usual groups got together to fight. It wasn’t only the far right though, you even had far left anarchists doing the same. I don’t know why this is a surprise… who’s going to stand and fight if not those with more extreme views?
4:
I don’t know if the USA was behind the coup, in any case, with Russia’s interventions in Belarus and Kazakhstan that seems to be acceptable from their point of view.
What I know is things went to shit when the then president Viktor Yanukovych did a 180º turn on the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement and decided to do an agreement with Russia instead. Maybe you’ll blame the US for that decision, I don’t know, but that’s when the protests, Maidan, etc, happened.
In any case, Ukraine had laws and the new government and elections followed that law. It’s just what it is, we don’t have to like it. And it’s certainly none of Russia’s business.
5:
NATO had an open door policy from the start. I know this, you should know this, and Putin certainly knows this. The policy doesn’t change. Nor it should change. We don’t tell Russia’s CSTO to change their rules, they don’t tell us to change our rules. It’s simple to understand.
Ukraine has been trying to join NATO from the early 2000s. Are they in NATO? No, of course they are not. The chances of me joining NATO today are higher than Ukraine’s chances in 2014, yet Russia did what they did.
Russia invaded Ukraine, but not because NATO kept repeating the same “we will consider any application” talk they’ve been repeating from the start. Nothing changed. Russia started a war - not NATO - and as grown ups they also need to accept the consequences of their decisions.
6:
because no great power ever allows foreign military threats to amass on its borders
I thought it was because of the Nazis? And I’m sorry, where’s the “great power” here?
Reminds me of the UK after WW2. Still acting like they were rich, powerful, and had an empire. Russia needs to have a good look at themselves. They are not the Soviet Union or are in the US or China’s league. We all need a reality check sometimes, hopefully this will be theirs.
Also, and while with many differences and a weird past, not even during the Cuban missile crisis did the US invaded Cuba. Shit only almost hit the fan because of the nukes, not because Soviet troops were there… and they were there for a long time before that.
7:
What’s happening is that the US has gotten its latest war that it’s been pushing for for decades. It’s always the USA, always has been, except this time, right?
Chechnya, Georgia… yes, it must be always the US forcing Russia to start wars. It’s never Russia’s fault, the poor guys just can’t control themselves and have to wage war on everyone around them.
Next we’ll blame any war in the Pacific on the US too when China decides to occupy some random island that doesn’t belong to them, because of course China was “forced” to be aggressive. Their claims over the south china sea that overlap territorial waters of other countries? All the US fault! Can’t you see they are being oppressed for gods sake!!! /s
It’s always everyone else’s fault. The US should start doing the same. Vietnam? It’s all the Soviet’s fault. Iraq? I don’t know, maybe blame Iran or something 🤷♂️. I’m joking, they shouldn’t do that.
What about taking responsibility for our actions? Russia decided to invade Ukraine. No need to be so defensive about it, they started the war, it’s them that crossed the border in 2014 and 2022. The way some of you talk it’s as if Ukraine/NATO/US invaded Russia, but no, Russia did it.
[I’d really like to continue this conversation about how Russia is totally blameless for the war they started (lol), but I have more important things to do. I’ll leave the thread here.]
Next we’ll blame any war in the Pacific on the US too when China decides
I didn’t read the rest but this jumped out just as I was scrolling by. Behold comrades, pure zombie NPC.
I’d really like to continue this conversation about how Russia is totally blameless for the war they started (lol), but I have more important things to do. I’ll leave the thread here.
“I really am terrified of a discussion about this but I’m typing up a shitload of Nazi apologia anyway and then running away.”
Even Russia has issues with China’s claims:
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-breaks-silence-china-map-disputed-islands-1823983
But sure, keep blaming the US for China’s actions. Poor China, also being forced into doing this.
Regarding the “Nazi apologia”, what part of “don’t invade someone else’s country” don’t you understand? Tankies gonna tankie, I guess.
Ironically the CIA believes Putin killed Prigozhin to defuse tensions with NATO for exiling Wagner to Belarus.
If Putin wants to defuse tensions with NATO, he knows what to do.
Right, pullout, like Putin’s daddy should have done.
I’m skeptical the government would allow him to do that.
He’s not actually a god-king. If a leader ever became a threat to the power structure, he’d be eliminated. Just ask JFK 🙃
Putin is, for all intents and purposes, an absolute ruler. He’s a lot closer to being the “god-king” of Russia than you appear to think.
Absolute rulers don’t actually exist. That’s fantasy stuff for kids books.
Even under feudalism and in ancient empires the leader wasn’t actually like that, they could always go too far and be replaced (with lots of violence of course)
Retreat from Ukraine, then fall out of a window.
yeah sure, he will surrender to a comedian who didn’t even go through compulsory military service. Hallo, this guy played piano with his dick on TV.
what a shame, real people are dying and this zelensdick plays the victim in his castle.
this guy played piano with his dick on TV
Maybe it’s probably not necessary to kickass the “world’s #2 strongest army” but knowing how to use your dick certainly doesn’t hurt obviously.
I, for one, think it’s pretty fucking hilarious and incredible that the “world’s second best army” is getting curbstomped by a country led by a guy who played piano with his dick on TV.
You might need to check your sources about how the war is going… Russia hasn’t committed its full army to this war.
not that I don’t believe you, but do you have sources yourself? Lotta propaganda flying everywhere
And https://understandingwar.org/publications
Generally you want to look at the sources that the military use and not sources the media use to justify their positions.
Russia can’t commit its full army to the war, for quite a few reasons. One of which is that it’s “full army” has been decisively proven to be WAY more of a paper tiger than anybody would have guessed.
The scale and duration of this war are orders of magnitude are far larger than anyone in Russia was planning for in January of 2022. They discovered that their battalions were rife with ghost soldiers so the officers could scoop up their pay. They discovered their modern tank stockpiles were not only unmaintained, but also often scavenged for parts to either repair other vehicles or simply sell on the black market. They discovered that, incredibly, their Air Force was unable to fully suppress a force that (on paper) was a mere fraction of their size and supposed capability.
This is scratching the surface. This shit goes way deeper, and it involves their whole military industrial complex, as well as pretty much all seriously profitable ventures in Russia. If money is made at any serious scale, someone’s going to put together a scheme to take a cut of it. That’s how the country works. And it’s biting them in the ass right now.
Yup I agree. But much like the Ukrainians were able to mobilize, Russia is doing the same. The paper tiger isn’t all paper though, they really do have 5 times the population as Ukraine.
This doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. It’s not the case that Russia is somehow holding back and has huge additional reserves and resources that it can throw at the conflict. The Russian military isn’t about to collapse or anything, but it’s not doing great either and has largely been exposed as far weaker than was previously supposed.
Yes I agree, particularly in the fact that the corruption and facade that was the Russian military reporting structure made it seem to Russian leadership that they were more powerful than they thought. This is the problem with having so many yes men surrounding an authoritarian leader.
However as we’re hitting the two year mark on the war soon, the Russian military has likely become more competent and less corrupt than before with the increased attention.
Lmao cope harder, tankie. Russia went from the “second best army in the world” to the 3rd best army operating openly in the Ukraine AO. Russia has proven themselves to be a joke, militarily - they went from being considered a superpower to being a peer-power of Ukraine. That’s a fucking HUGE step down in geopolitical clout and military credibility.
Again I think you need to do some research on this…
Or you know, Russia could just have not attacked in the first place.
Putin is the laughingstock of the world.
Is that why G20 decided not to sanction nor condemn Russia this week?
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That’s unfortunate.
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Why couldn’t he just let Ukraine be then?
I mean, obviously?
But that would counter Zelensky’s argument.
You mean Zelensky was wrong? No way!
Every time I read comments about the war on Lemmy I lose a little hope for liberals as with every war the same shit happens and they are blood thirsty monsters living in fantasy land, and when this war comes to an end they will surely denounce ever supporting Ukraine just like they did with the brave freedom fighters of the Mujahadeen…
Nah, I’ll proudly support fucking Russia in the ass without a lube. That country is making the world worse for all people in the whole world. Which, while impressive in its own, sucks.
Using terrorist to talk about russian’s state army, well identified, sounds fishy to me.
looking for a EU only fediverse instance. I’m fed up of us trolls.
Why you think people from the EU will be more understandable of your conspiracies, is beyond me.
Source: am from EU.
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Oh it’s you, idiot and Russia shill.
Do you wet your panties everytime Putin gets a new yacht, goes through another round of Botox or assassinates another journalist?
Your comment adds no value and we’re all worse off as a group for reading your ad hominem vitriol. Please go and sit in the corner and think about how useless you have been until you have something constructive to share.
Here is something constructive: the Russian Mafia state might just collapse soon, giving a window to hundreds of colonized peoples, like Chechens, Dagestanis, Mongols, Tatars, etc, a chance for freedom.
All the colonized Native American tribes first…
Oooh so now you go from “Russia is the bestest, Ukraine nazis” to “whuddabout” as you run out of anything constructive to say.
Not at all, I just think these comments are disingeneous and filled with fallacies. We use the same arguments when we pollute the earth (other countries should lead by example if we should stop polluting), so why does the same not apply to foreign interference? Maybe the USA should remove its 800+ military bases around the world before telling other countries they can’t interfere in another countries sovereignty. Imagine a country saying, USA please leave. Do you think the USA will just say, “OK sure I’ll pull all my troops out tomorrow.”
Hey did anybody else consider the relevance of what happened in America? Have you guys heard? About America? America. What about America. No forget Russia, we’re taking about America right now! America…
This entire comment thread pretends like their poop doesn’t stink while telling someone else their poop stinks. American Exceptionalism is a bad thing to defend.
Hey, guys what about America!? Did anybody hear about America? AMERICAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
It adds plenty. You are shilling for the worst, most russophobic, thieving, murderous, most brutal mafia in the world.
No I am not shilling for the CIA thank you.
Oooh, what a great comeback.
In the meantime 1/4 of Russians shit in a hole in the ground for lack of plumbing while their children die in Ukraine with shit equipment so that Putin and his Mafia can collect mansions, private jets and yachts.
If the CIA really wanted to kill Russians they couldn’t have done it better.
It’s pretty clear the CIA wants dead Ukranians, 60,000 this summer ☹️
Nobody is forcing Ukraine to fight. > 90% want their country back, based on latest polls.
Zelensky has forgotten to mention Mink and Mink2 agreement that he and EU have broken, thus lying to Russia, and even admitted it.
