We aren’t sure. It’s still a billionaire owned social media. For some reason people are too afraid of the freedom actual decentralized social media gives them and they want a billionaire behind the scenes running everything and coralling them to the correct opinions.
It’s not fear of the freedom, it’s choice paralysis.
People want to go to one website, sign up for one account and then be part of a network with absolutely zero research beforehand. I like the fediverse, but the barrier to entry is higher than that because it first requires you to understand the technology at a base level.
Internet services getting shitty and then dying is nothing new. Look at MySpace, Digg, or any BBS. people just abandon the old one and join the new popular one. They’ll leave when it gets shitty enough and join the new thing
barrier to entry is higher than that because it first requires you to understand the technology at a base level.
I just don’t buy that argument. Email is prolific and virtually no one knows how it works. IMO it comes down to marketing budgets.
I legitimately believe that if ActivityPub services had gained traction before the dotcom bubble, they would be the default today, and twitter/bsky/reddit etc would have to go above and beyond to convince people to used their siloed platforms.
Instead, for-profit ventures are motivated by money to come up with new ideas and push them into the mainstream with their marketing budgets. Then later, the fediverse copies those ideas, often with half-baked approximations that are hard to scale (usually due to bandwidth and/or moderation costs).
people just abandon the old one and join the new popular one. They’ll leave when it gets shitty enough and join the new thing
I’m hoping this is the phenomenon that is the best chance for the fediverse’s future, because every time one of the platforms dies off some small percentage of the userbase switches to a fediverse alternative. And a protocol won’t fail like a private service will. So over time, the more often private services fail, the more users find the fediverse, the larger it gets, and the more people notice that it’s the most dependable way to go. It might take 100 years for a critical mass of people to figure it out, but I think in the long term, the fediverse will eventually be seen as “old reliable”.
I legitimately believe that if ActivityPub services had gained traction before the dotcom bubble, they would be the default today, and twitter/bsky/reddit etc would have to go above and beyond to convince people to used their siloed platforms.
Strong agree. Email is prolific because it is the proto social network infrastructure, and it has interoperability at its core. You have someones email, you can write them. Theoretically it doesn’t matter what email you send it from, you can send an email to any address in the world. There are limits to this these days, because of things like DMARC, DKIM, and SPF, which have been introduced because of shortcomings in the open protocols, but in its purest form, there are no barriers.
If ActivityPub had been around at the same time as email, it would be considered infrastructure the same way email is today. The online world would look different, but don’t neglect that industries are still finding ways to make money from email. There might not have been platforms like the social media silos we have today, but there might be an industry trying to milk ActivityPub for money.
I’m hoping this is the phenomenon that is the best chance for the fediverse’s future, because every time one of the platforms dies off some small percentage of the userbase switches to a fediverse alternative. And a protocol won’t fail like a private service will. So over time, the more often private services fail, the more users find the fediverse, the larger it gets, and the more people notice that it’s the most dependable way to go. It might take 100 years for a critical mass of people to figure it out, but I think in the long term, the fediverse will eventually be seen as “old reliable”.
I too subscribe to this hope. I always end up writing emails to people I haven’t been in touch with for a long time, and aren’t sure about which phone number, social network, or physial address they are currently reachable on. Which reminded me of this post:
I think it’s also a lack of tech understanding. I know how easy it is to fork a repo so I get how great the fediverse is with all the services being FOSS and anyone can create an instance. This major benefit makes no sense to someone who doesn’t even know what a git repo is or the difference between free (but you are the product being sold) and FOSS.
Even if you understand the tech, the fediverse has a content discovery problem. The content you want to see may actually exist. However, your instance needs knowledge of the content that best fits you. That’s what bluesky’s model does better.
This. The average user doesn’t want to know about the workings and ‘All that technical stuff’, and why should they?
They want to click an icon and have everything and everyone there. They shouldn’t have to swap instances or what have you.
I put Mastodon on a back burner as it’s just too clunky (for me at least) and am currently interacting with people from all over on BlueSky. Half the time on Mastodon (various apps/instances, web, or browser) I couldn’t even log on.
BlueSky will probably go the way of others. Yes, there is a troll problem, and you need to be wary. But I had the same to a lesser extent on Mastodon.
In the end, I’ve had to accept my relatives, work, and old Army colleagues will never be on there, I’ve become resigned to that and keep a WhatsApp account for that reason.
At some point you have to jump ship and follow what fits you and your needs/wants in terms of security, morality (in the context of Meta and its complete lack of ethics), etc. You can try and get folks to try other platforms but most of them will inevitably fall back to what they know and never leave. I’m not going to keep Facebook around on the off chance that one relative needs to reach out. The relatives willing to actually make an effort can already text or call me and vice versa.
This whole billionaire social media prison is not something I’m willing to keep destroying my mental health on over some “blood is thicker than water” bs.
Yeah I get that, it’s why I don’t use FB anymore. I keep WhatsApp for close family though. They’re is no other option. And dont tell me to use text. Doesn’t cut it.
Oh, no I get it. I went to Chile a few years ago and it made me realize how truly big the WhatsApp community was in South America. It was on billboards, buildings; it’s become a necessity.
Even so, if celebrities started using something, their users would follow them - as happened with Bluesky, and to a much smaller extent the Rexodus from Reddit to Lemmy over the 3rd party app debacle.
But there seem to be just too many problems to make it worth most people’s efforts. Like lack of content. And speaking of Lemmy, r/RedditAlternatives is full of people that came over here, but then went back - citing lack of content and presence of toxicity as their top reasons.
Me too. I found a post via browsing by All, and responded with something innocuous (I thought) to the effect that “Biden may not be perfect, but he did at least lower gasoline prices and that’s not entirely nothing”… and the responses kept coming for WEEKS and WEEKS. And then I did it again - once was on Lemmygrad.ml and the other on hexbear.net.
Even taking it as a given that I’m a dumb stupid idiot (am I though?), it was obvious to me how “consent” matters not at all to them. I was being “dunked on”, which tbf is literally written in the side-bar text of ChapoTrapHouse@hexbear.net!.. EXCEPT that I found it by browsing All, so had never seen that!?
So to clarify, it’s not that I think such places shouldn’t exist entirely, just that they are not a match to everyone else across the Fediverse, particularly the more mainstream normie, mostly centrists in the USA that were coming over from Reddit (including myself).
Mind you, PieFed provides full solutions to all of these issues: the side-bar text is shown down below EVERY post from a community (okay so someone could still find something via All and respond via comment without ever seeing it but… it’s something?), and more importantly it provides the ability to place messages attached to like URLs or more relevant here, Lemmy instances. Hexbear is fully defederated from PieFed.social but if it were not, then for one I wouldn’t be here, but moreover I would push heavily for such a message to be added that warns people who do not know the lore already. Also you can do personal defederations without needing admin support, by truly blocking all users from a given instance (I do it for lemmy.ml), unlike Lemmy’s horribly misnamed feature that would be better termed a community muting (that still allows those users to spam your inbox with notifications for WEEKS and WEEKS). Also, PieFed allows you to trigger notifications for anything at all - a user, a particular post, a singular comment (whether yours or by someone else), and thus CRUCIALLY allows you to STOP receiving notifications for something when you don’t want that anymore.
And those aren’t even the top features of PieFed:-). However, back then PieFed didn’t exist, so I can well understand all the people complaining in places such as r/RedditAlternatives (as I mentioned but I’ll bring it up again:-) why they tried out Lemmy and decided to abandon it. You and I almost did the same - and we are by no means alone in that, as, still yet again, many did do so.
Unfortunately Lemmy’s feature set in this regard have actively gone backwards lately - e.g. instance blocking used to not allow notifications, but now it does. And Lemmy.ml seems integrated heavily into the Lemmy processes, so much so that most instances don’t dare to defederate from it. This seems relevant since the OP was talking about “centralization”, and while in theory the Lemmy sourcecode doesn’t absolutely 100% mandate that a new instance be federated with lemmy.ml, in practice it is true that every single major instance has done so. i.e. we talk a lot about decentralization, even while we have this major centralization feature present in the Lemmyverse.
Thus forcing new users to be exposed to the anti-Western propaganda (e.g. “bOtH sIdEs SaMe”), before they learn how to block those communities and users (but are prevented from doing so for the entire instance) one by one…
Omg it’s amazing! Treat yourself enough to make an account. Once you see the sign-up wizard, asking you what your interests are and pre-signing you up to communities based on your responses, and it asking you how much content you would like to see containing the keywords “Musk” or “Trump” (importantly, not just All vs. None, but an intermediate Some as well), you’ll see what the Threadiverse has been missing!
After that, it does take quite some getting used to, coming from Lemmy and Reddit, but that’s a good thing bc it has so many more CHOICES that you can make, like not just All vs. Subscribed (vs. Local), but categories of communities. Like e.g. you could choose not to subscribe to any political communities so that you won’t be deluged with such every single time you log on, and yet all the News and Politics are available in the appropriately named News and Politics - which (it just keeps getting better and better) are also user customizable and shareable as well!
It’s not perfected yet - notifications are sometimes buggy and the search function sucks compared to Lemmy - but it serves my needs 99.9% of the time and for the rest there’s my Lemmy alt to fall back to anyway:-).
So yes indeed, try it and you’ll fall in love instantly, finding yourself using it more often until it’s your main. You’ll see.:-)
Oh and the developer team adds features practically weekly, plus is super friendly and responsive, so there’s that too.:-)
We aren’t sure. It’s still a billionaire owned social media. For some reason people are too afraid of the freedom actual decentralized social media gives them and they want a billionaire behind the scenes running everything and coralling them to the correct opinions.
It’s not fear of the freedom, it’s choice paralysis. People want to go to one website, sign up for one account and then be part of a network with absolutely zero research beforehand. I like the fediverse, but the barrier to entry is higher than that because it first requires you to understand the technology at a base level.
Internet services getting shitty and then dying is nothing new. Look at MySpace, Digg, or any BBS. people just abandon the old one and join the new popular one. They’ll leave when it gets shitty enough and join the new thing
I just don’t buy that argument. Email is prolific and virtually no one knows how it works. IMO it comes down to marketing budgets.
I legitimately believe that if ActivityPub services had gained traction before the dotcom bubble, they would be the default today, and twitter/bsky/reddit etc would have to go above and beyond to convince people to used their siloed platforms.
Instead, for-profit ventures are motivated by money to come up with new ideas and push them into the mainstream with their marketing budgets. Then later, the fediverse copies those ideas, often with half-baked approximations that are hard to scale (usually due to bandwidth and/or moderation costs).
I’m hoping this is the phenomenon that is the best chance for the fediverse’s future, because every time one of the platforms dies off some small percentage of the userbase switches to a fediverse alternative. And a protocol won’t fail like a private service will. So over time, the more often private services fail, the more users find the fediverse, the larger it gets, and the more people notice that it’s the most dependable way to go. It might take 100 years for a critical mass of people to figure it out, but I think in the long term, the fediverse will eventually be seen as “old reliable”.
Strong agree. Email is prolific because it is the proto social network infrastructure, and it has interoperability at its core. You have someones email, you can write them. Theoretically it doesn’t matter what email you send it from, you can send an email to any address in the world. There are limits to this these days, because of things like DMARC, DKIM, and SPF, which have been introduced because of shortcomings in the open protocols, but in its purest form, there are no barriers.
If ActivityPub had been around at the same time as email, it would be considered infrastructure the same way email is today. The online world would look different, but don’t neglect that industries are still finding ways to make money from email. There might not have been platforms like the social media silos we have today, but there might be an industry trying to milk ActivityPub for money.
I too subscribe to this hope. I always end up writing emails to people I haven’t been in touch with for a long time, and aren’t sure about which phone number, social network, or physial address they are currently reachable on. Which reminded me of this post:
https://my-notes.dragas.net/2023/09/25/25-years-later/
Email just (still) works. Can’t ask for more than that.
Yes. This is the best explanation of why people choose the platforms they use.
I think it’s also a lack of tech understanding. I know how easy it is to fork a repo so I get how great the fediverse is with all the services being FOSS and anyone can create an instance. This major benefit makes no sense to someone who doesn’t even know what a git repo is or the difference between free (but you are the product being sold) and FOSS.
Even if you understand the tech, the fediverse has a content discovery problem. The content you want to see may actually exist. However, your instance needs knowledge of the content that best fits you. That’s what bluesky’s model does better.
Yep this is the real problem. I can’t find the stuff I want to see on Mastodon. But on Bluesky it’s super easy.
This. The average user doesn’t want to know about the workings and ‘All that technical stuff’, and why should they?
They want to click an icon and have everything and everyone there. They shouldn’t have to swap instances or what have you.
I put Mastodon on a back burner as it’s just too clunky (for me at least) and am currently interacting with people from all over on BlueSky. Half the time on Mastodon (various apps/instances, web, or browser) I couldn’t even log on.
BlueSky will probably go the way of others. Yes, there is a troll problem, and you need to be wary. But I had the same to a lesser extent on Mastodon.
In the end, I’ve had to accept my relatives, work, and old Army colleagues will never be on there, I’ve become resigned to that and keep a WhatsApp account for that reason.
Didn’t you hear? Digg is coming back, now with AI!
And one of the muppets behind Reddit, kn0thing.
I don’t believe it has anything to do with people’s fear. More money means more marketing power. It’s that simple.
“But none of my friends are on there.”
Make new friends then.
Right, so we just trade in our relatives for some new ones.
That’s the attitude that puts people off.
At some point you have to jump ship and follow what fits you and your needs/wants in terms of security, morality (in the context of Meta and its complete lack of ethics), etc. You can try and get folks to try other platforms but most of them will inevitably fall back to what they know and never leave. I’m not going to keep Facebook around on the off chance that one relative needs to reach out. The relatives willing to actually make an effort can already text or call me and vice versa.
This whole billionaire social media prison is not something I’m willing to keep destroying my mental health on over some “blood is thicker than water” bs.
Yeah I get that, it’s why I don’t use FB anymore. I keep WhatsApp for close family though. They’re is no other option. And dont tell me to use text. Doesn’t cut it.
Oh, no I get it. I went to Chile a few years ago and it made me realize how truly big the WhatsApp community was in South America. It was on billboards, buildings; it’s become a necessity.
Tech people tend to make horrible salespeople, especially to non-technical normies.
The thing is, some people value different things… and that’s okay.
Most aren’t even aware that a decentralized option exists.
Even so, if celebrities started using something, their users would follow them - as happened with Bluesky, and to a much smaller extent the Rexodus from Reddit to Lemmy over the 3rd party app debacle.
But there seem to be just too many problems to make it worth most people’s efforts. Like lack of content. And speaking of Lemmy, r/RedditAlternatives is full of people that came over here, but then went back - citing lack of content and presence of toxicity as their top reasons.
I almost left due to the toxicity of the tankie triad but luckily I learned the block features work well.
Me too. I found a post via browsing by All, and responded with something innocuous (I thought) to the effect that “Biden may not be perfect, but he did at least lower gasoline prices and that’s not entirely nothing”… and the responses kept coming for WEEKS and WEEKS. And then I did it again - once was on Lemmygrad.ml and the other on hexbear.net.
Even taking it as a given that I’m a dumb stupid idiot (am I though?), it was obvious to me how “consent” matters not at all to them. I was being “dunked on”, which tbf is literally written in the side-bar text of ChapoTrapHouse@hexbear.net!.. EXCEPT that I found it by browsing All, so had never seen that!?
So to clarify, it’s not that I think such places shouldn’t exist entirely, just that they are not a match to everyone else across the Fediverse, particularly the more mainstream normie, mostly centrists in the USA that were coming over from Reddit (including myself).
Mind you, PieFed provides full solutions to all of these issues: the side-bar text is shown down below EVERY post from a community (okay so someone could still find something via All and respond via comment without ever seeing it but… it’s something?), and more importantly it provides the ability to place messages attached to like URLs or more relevant here, Lemmy instances. Hexbear is fully defederated from PieFed.social but if it were not, then for one I wouldn’t be here, but moreover I would push heavily for such a message to be added that warns people who do not know the lore already. Also you can do personal defederations without needing admin support, by truly blocking all users from a given instance (I do it for lemmy.ml), unlike Lemmy’s horribly misnamed feature that would be better termed a community muting (that still allows those users to spam your inbox with notifications for WEEKS and WEEKS). Also, PieFed allows you to trigger notifications for anything at all - a user, a particular post, a singular comment (whether yours or by someone else), and thus CRUCIALLY allows you to STOP receiving notifications for something when you don’t want that anymore.
And those aren’t even the top features of PieFed:-). However, back then PieFed didn’t exist, so I can well understand all the people complaining in places such as r/RedditAlternatives (as I mentioned but I’ll bring it up again:-) why they tried out Lemmy and decided to abandon it. You and I almost did the same - and we are by no means alone in that, as, still yet again, many did do so.
Unfortunately Lemmy’s feature set in this regard have actively gone backwards lately - e.g. instance blocking used to not allow notifications, but now it does. And Lemmy.ml seems integrated heavily into the Lemmy processes, so much so that most instances don’t dare to defederate from it. This seems relevant since the OP was talking about “centralization”, and while in theory the Lemmy sourcecode doesn’t absolutely 100% mandate that a new instance be federated with lemmy.ml, in practice it is true that every single major instance has done so. i.e. we talk a lot about decentralization, even while we have this major centralization feature present in the Lemmyverse.
Thus forcing new users to be exposed to the anti-Western propaganda (e.g. “bOtH sIdEs SaMe”), before they learn how to block those communities and users (but are prevented from doing so for the entire instance) one by one…
I might have to try PieFed. I think this might inspire me to.
Omg it’s amazing! Treat yourself enough to make an account. Once you see the sign-up wizard, asking you what your interests are and pre-signing you up to communities based on your responses, and it asking you how much content you would like to see containing the keywords “Musk” or “Trump” (importantly, not just All vs. None, but an intermediate Some as well), you’ll see what the Threadiverse has been missing!
After that, it does take quite some getting used to, coming from Lemmy and Reddit, but that’s a good thing bc it has so many more CHOICES that you can make, like not just All vs. Subscribed (vs. Local), but categories of communities. Like e.g. you could choose not to subscribe to any political communities so that you won’t be deluged with such every single time you log on, and yet all the News and Politics are available in the appropriately named News and Politics - which (it just keeps getting better and better) are also user customizable and shareable as well!
It’s not perfected yet - notifications are sometimes buggy and the search function sucks compared to Lemmy - but it serves my needs 99.9% of the time and for the rest there’s my Lemmy alt to fall back to anyway:-).
So yes indeed, try it and you’ll fall in love instantly, finding yourself using it more often until it’s your main. You’ll see.:-)
Oh and the developer team adds features practically weekly, plus is super friendly and responsive, so there’s that too.:-)