I mean working somewhere like Qualcomm or Microsoft when you care about FOSS, democracy, and the public commons, or a weapons manufacturer for a military that invades other countries and kills innocent people in their homes.
I mean working somewhere like Qualcomm or Microsoft when you care about FOSS, democracy, and the public commons, or a weapons manufacturer for a military that invades other countries and kills innocent people in their homes.
I envy the folks here who can lay their morals out on the table without having to sacrifice a roof or food on the table. Must be nice.
It’s never an easy decision to make and often you simply don’t have the resources to make it immediately; but if the work you do is immoral/unethical, your goal should be to remove yourself as soon as reasonably possible.
That said; sometimes even the need to provide for one’s self or family doesn’t outweigh the horrible things we’re asked to do. Where exactly that line is we’re unlikely to agree on; but in those situations sacrifices must be made.
You always have a choice, and it’s our choices that define us.
I get the vibe that it’s a lot easier if you’re not in the US. I guess there are a few worse countries as well…
That’s by design. It’s why regulations that give power to workers never pass, because it’s actually let emplyees apply pressure on their employees to be ethical, and employers don’t want that
I mean, if you find yourself in that situation, the ideal scenario would be that you exit that situation as quickly as possible.
So far, no free Americans are required to work for an evil corporation. And as far as I’m aware, most other countries do not force their laborers to work for evil corporations.
So looking for a new job is an option.
The next best scenario would be that you do everything you can to work ineffectively and waste their resources in just such a way as that they cannot fire you so that you, bit by bit, contribute to toppling their evil system.
Did you just “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” me?
Are you stupid?
Yeah, but not because of this thread. Plenty of other reasons.
But as we will see for so many others here, there are no moral companies, and even if there are no one is hiring.
So yeah, I could be completely moral. Lose the house to the bank. Not be able to eat. Not be able to provide for my family. We’d be destitute but I could confidently tell you that we were moral. What a win that would be.
There are certainly less immoral companies though. Avoid arms manufacturers, fossil fuel, big tech, the police and chemical manufacturers, obviously.
There’s vaguely ethical jobs in manufacturing, retail, government (e.g. parks, urban maintenance), academia, the NGO sector, and many other spaces
Ah yes, just avoid [lists all of the country’s biggest industries]…
Of course, and I think everyone has to decide what their line is, their own personal Rubicon and if they have crossed it or not. Those lines can shift too, a company that was okay last year may not be this year. It could be that all of a sudden you find yourself doing things you wouldn’t have dreamed of 5 years ago. Maybe it is time to look for a new role. It’s completely a personal decision.
The blind “Just quit your jobs” is what annoys me, and doesn’t add anything valuable to the conversation.
In my defense, I never said “just quit your job”.
I said, start looking for another one. There are other jobs out there. There’s nothing that forces you to work for, meta, or google, or alphabet, or whatever the hell they’re calling themselves.
If you are working for a company that you find personally immoral and you are bound to them because of financial reasons, then I will stand by the statement that one of the best things that you can do is to find a way out, and one of the best ways to do that is to replace it with a different job so that you do not financially suffer through the transition.
I don’t really get how anyone would interpret that as a blind “quit your job”.
Maybe stop huffing fatalism. its not good for you.
I gave clear and simple things that can be done by anyone with a minimum amount of effort to improve things. That’s all it takes to be moral, to be willing to improve things.
You’re right. Small steps matter, and I’ve made plenty myself to live and work more ethically. But that’s not what your original comment said. You said:
You suggested an oversimplified binary situation. That’s simply not realistic for most people. Suggesting be a half-ass employee isn’t meaningful advice either.
A better way to approach this is to recognize that everyone has a moral line they need to define for themselves, and to regularly reflect on whether their work crosses it. If it does, they can decide whether leaving is feasible, or start moving toward something more aligned with their values.
“Just quit your job” is not an answer. As The Good Place illustrated perfectly, modern life makes it impossible to be entirely moral. They highlighted that by buying a simple tomato you are indirectly supporting big farming, greenhouse gas emissions, unfair labor practices, even slave labor. By participating in society at all you are an immoral person.
So yes, we should all try to do better, but we also need realistic paths, not platitudes.
I was wondering how far I’d have to scroll to find a The Good Place reference. Thank you for your contribution.
The idea of being a slow and ineffectual worker is a well-known concept in the CIA’s counterintelligence operations manual.
It is a known and tried and proven method of destabilizing government organizations and institutions.
Apparently, I’m coming off as a dick, and that’s definitely not my intention. I’m sharing the information that I have.
If it doesn’t get received well, oh well. That’s on me for not communicating it effectively.