Seriously. Was Holodomor a deliberate genocide? This is the hill you’re going to die on? Yes, the famine affected a lot of people, but we all know which people were least affected and it wasn’t the Ukrainians who were trying to actually grow the food. Much like the Irish Famine was only a tragic genocide because the British overlords wouldn’t put up with reducing their own take. The blight was real, but the decimation was pure unjustified cruelty.
I’m a leftist, but I’m an honest one. We gain nothing by denying the past and refusing to learn from it. It does a disservice to us all to hide the fact that old ethnic and cultural violence behind a window dressing of systemic failure. Systemic bigotry is still bigotry.
The kazhaks lost more people per capita than Ukraine did. Major non-Ukrainian Russian populations centers suffered equally or very nearly as much as Ukraine did.
So you may think you’re an honest leftist, but you might not be. As an honest leftist myself, I recognize that the Soviet government made tragic decisions, many of them punitive, none of them directed at ethnic cleansing, because the Soviet Union did not have an analysis that included specific ethnicities being material to their political goals as ethnicities. They understood, documented, wrote about, discussed, debated, legislated, and enforced the exact opposite of ethnic cleansing constantly. Yes, Ukranian suffered a lot through the transition to collectivized agriculture, more than most. But that’s because the majority of Ukranian peasants were freeholders of land, whereas the majority of Russian peasants were serfs. As freeholders, they would lose their claim to their farms. Serfs would suffer no such loss. This was structural. Russian peasants weren’t targeted for collectivization because under the Tsar they were already collectivized, whereas Ukranian peasants had private ownership of the land they worked.
Collectivization was not ethnic cleansing, the famine was not ethnically targeted, and the punitive actions of the Soviet Union were not ethnically motivated by an ethnic strategy of ethnic supremacy.
That’s honesty. Honesty is doing the reading, doing the research, and not discarding all the evidence that contradicts the obviously contrived narrative. Yes there was a famine. Yes it killed more Ukranians in absolute numbers. Yes the Soviet leadership made deliberate decisions that were intended to punish people who were Ukranians. No it wasn’t because they were Ukranian, no it wasn’t because the Soviet leadership thought that ethnic cleansing would achieve their intended goals, no it’s not because the Soviet leadership decided to artificially starve all of those people out of malice or ethnic supremacy.
Yes and proportionally the Romani were murdered by the Nazis at a higher rate than the Jews, but we don’t think of it as the Romani Holocaust. The Russians used a cannon to swat flies and murdered millions and you’re going to carry water for them based on official rationalizations? You sound like an American trying to justify racial red-lining.
Why don’t you take a knee and admit you don’t understand the situation and the context. At the end of the day, Soviet institutions were run by people, people with conditioned biases and baggage. I might have some sympathy for their ideological goals, but I will not overlook their atrocities. The Russians were ruled by monsters then, just like they are ruled by monsters now and the window dressing of their official ideology makes little difference.
Yes and proportionally the Romani were murdered by the Nazis at a higher rate than the Jews, but we don’t think of it as the Romani Holocaust.
…Youve just proven how thoroughly propagandized you are. loool. nato has always wanted you to remember the Holocaust as ‘a jEwS oNlY’ genocide cause they have wanted and have clearly succeeded, in convincing you that Isntreal has a right to exist cause of the Holocaust lol.
👏🏼👏🏽👏🏿Give yourself an applaid for being so thoroughly fooled anout the Holocaust AND the Sovoet Famine of 1932 you are. Nicely done ‘lEfTiSt’ . Nicely done 🥳👏🏿👏🏾👏🏽
Lol try picking up a book or looking up a study for once in your life 😂🤣🤭
Oh good. You’re one of those. No genius, people focus on the Jewish genocide because it was objectively more deaths. I’m the one that pointed out the Romani were hit harder proportionally and their murder was no less horrific. Two things can be true at the same time. I pointed it out because your red herring about the Kazakhs was bait. The fact that they targeted more than one ethnic group when starving people to death does not make it less of an atrocity, or any less of a parallel to other contemporary ethnic cleansing. Tyrants are going to be tyrants, irrespective and regardless of what philosophy they hide behind.
But go off child. Explain it like my own family didn’t lose people in holodomor and many other acts of cruelty, while others perpetrated crimes of their own. I bet you think your hands are clean too. I know a lot of Israelis do. Personally I’m more supportive of the Jews who know what’s being done in their name is wrong. Unfortunately most of them aren’t there to stop it. The ones that are there tend to be the ones who claim to know the history, but learned precisely the wrong lesson from it. And you’re walking the same damn road. The same road people have been walking since Sumer and Akkad. Why don’t you pick up a new book child, I’ve picked up many. The most misguided people I know are the one’s that only read one book and think they understand the whole story.
Seriously. Was Holodomor a deliberate genocide? This is the hill you’re going to die on? Yes, the famine affected a lot of people, but we all know which people were least affected and it wasn’t the Ukrainians who were trying to actually grow the food. Much like the Irish Famine was only a tragic genocide because the British overlords wouldn’t put up with reducing their own take. The blight was real, but the decimation was pure unjustified cruelty.
I’m a leftist, but I’m an honest one. We gain nothing by denying the past and refusing to learn from it. It does a disservice to us all to hide the fact that old ethnic and cultural violence behind a window dressing of systemic failure. Systemic bigotry is still bigotry.
Russians, AND Ukranians …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho&pp=ygUVaG9sb2RvbW9yIGJhZGVtcGFuYWRh, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L3d0GJlzgc&pp=ygUVaG9sb2RvbW9yIGJhZGVtcGFuYWRh , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM&pp=ygUjVGhlIHNvdmlldCBmYW1pbmUgbWFyeGlzb
ACKSHUALLY the Kazakhs were the most affected by the Famine of 1932 in a per capita basis.
And as I said elsewhere, technically the Romani were murdered at a higher rate than the Jews by the Nazis. That’s not the “gotcha” you think it is.
The kazhaks lost more people per capita than Ukraine did. Major non-Ukrainian Russian populations centers suffered equally or very nearly as much as Ukraine did.
So you may think you’re an honest leftist, but you might not be. As an honest leftist myself, I recognize that the Soviet government made tragic decisions, many of them punitive, none of them directed at ethnic cleansing, because the Soviet Union did not have an analysis that included specific ethnicities being material to their political goals as ethnicities. They understood, documented, wrote about, discussed, debated, legislated, and enforced the exact opposite of ethnic cleansing constantly. Yes, Ukranian suffered a lot through the transition to collectivized agriculture, more than most. But that’s because the majority of Ukranian peasants were freeholders of land, whereas the majority of Russian peasants were serfs. As freeholders, they would lose their claim to their farms. Serfs would suffer no such loss. This was structural. Russian peasants weren’t targeted for collectivization because under the Tsar they were already collectivized, whereas Ukranian peasants had private ownership of the land they worked.
Collectivization was not ethnic cleansing, the famine was not ethnically targeted, and the punitive actions of the Soviet Union were not ethnically motivated by an ethnic strategy of ethnic supremacy.
That’s honesty. Honesty is doing the reading, doing the research, and not discarding all the evidence that contradicts the obviously contrived narrative. Yes there was a famine. Yes it killed more Ukranians in absolute numbers. Yes the Soviet leadership made deliberate decisions that were intended to punish people who were Ukranians. No it wasn’t because they were Ukranian, no it wasn’t because the Soviet leadership thought that ethnic cleansing would achieve their intended goals, no it’s not because the Soviet leadership decided to artificially starve all of those people out of malice or ethnic supremacy.
Yes and proportionally the Romani were murdered by the Nazis at a higher rate than the Jews, but we don’t think of it as the Romani Holocaust. The Russians used a cannon to swat flies and murdered millions and you’re going to carry water for them based on official rationalizations? You sound like an American trying to justify racial red-lining.
Why don’t you take a knee and admit you don’t understand the situation and the context. At the end of the day, Soviet institutions were run by people, people with conditioned biases and baggage. I might have some sympathy for their ideological goals, but I will not overlook their atrocities. The Russians were ruled by monsters then, just like they are ruled by monsters now and the window dressing of their official ideology makes little difference.
…Youve just proven how thoroughly propagandized you are. loool. nato has always wanted you to remember the Holocaust as ‘a jEwS oNlY’ genocide cause they have wanted and have clearly succeeded, in convincing you that Isntreal has a right to exist cause of the Holocaust lol.
Thats why globally most Holocaust museums and even synagogues are run by fanatical zionists https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPostCdgViI&t=2278s&pp=ygUodGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gZ2xvYmFsIHJpc2UgaW4gYW50aSBzZW1pdGlzbQ%3D%3D , … https://tariqacknickulous.substack.com/p/99-of-jewish-american-organizations nato won. ANd people like you continue and continue to prove that theyve won the information war.
👏🏼👏🏽👏🏿Give yourself an applaid for being so thoroughly fooled anout the Holocaust AND the Sovoet Famine of 1932 you are. Nicely done ‘lEfTiSt’ . Nicely done 🥳👏🏿👏🏾👏🏽
Lol try picking up a book or looking up a study for once in your life 😂🤣🤭
Oh good. You’re one of those. No genius, people focus on the Jewish genocide because it was objectively more deaths. I’m the one that pointed out the Romani were hit harder proportionally and their murder was no less horrific. Two things can be true at the same time. I pointed it out because your red herring about the Kazakhs was bait. The fact that they targeted more than one ethnic group when starving people to death does not make it less of an atrocity, or any less of a parallel to other contemporary ethnic cleansing. Tyrants are going to be tyrants, irrespective and regardless of what philosophy they hide behind.
But go off child. Explain it like my own family didn’t lose people in holodomor and many other acts of cruelty, while others perpetrated crimes of their own. I bet you think your hands are clean too. I know a lot of Israelis do. Personally I’m more supportive of the Jews who know what’s being done in their name is wrong. Unfortunately most of them aren’t there to stop it. The ones that are there tend to be the ones who claim to know the history, but learned precisely the wrong lesson from it. And you’re walking the same damn road. The same road people have been walking since Sumer and Akkad. Why don’t you pick up a new book child, I’ve picked up many. The most misguided people I know are the one’s that only read one book and think they understand the whole story.