you mean liberals ?
In honor of labor day and all those who sacrificed for better working conditions I’ve been thinking of ways to make our voices heard. I think protesting at FAA air traffic facilities is a great option. If we keep controllers from accessing their jobs the air space shuts down. This would be a huge blow to Trump!
Let me explore how we organize these protests. The beauty is most of these employees are sick of going to work because they HATE TRUMP! They just need to see the public is on their side and we need to give them a reason to not show up for work! Air traffic controllers think their duty is to go to work and pretend everything is normal, if we protest right in front of them they will know the public wants them to act!
We will also not hurt the individual. The air traffic centers where there is a higher volume of controllers are paid very well. They also have great union benefits. Including leave pay called “weather leave”, which is usually time paid for absence from work due to adverse conditions. Well protests right outside their workplace is an adverse condition and the union will make sure the federal government pays the individual if they can’t make it to work!
So how do we organize this. I think we should target the air traffic centers “ARTCC”. These are large radar facilities where 100+ employees work every day. They have one gate access point. You can start off small, just on the sidewalk with signage expressing that serving Trump is shitting on the Constitution (this is a common debate between federal employees now) This can be as small as 1 person just out there on the sidewalk peacefully holding up a sign. Totally legal.
Now if we have enough numbers we can start “crossing the street” protests. Pedestrians legally are allowed to cross the street in front of the entrances to these centers and we can utilize slow walking speeds to delay entry to employees. Usually this should be done between 6-9am and 2-6pm as those are shift change hours.
Finally a lot of controllers may find other reasons to not show up to work. Emotional distress, lack of sleep, or fatigue are all Union protected reasons controllers could get PAID time off while we the people protest against the trump regime. Once the administration is deposed the worker individual can return to work normally with little impact to their financial situation!
So now the locations of the centers:
This is the issue, they are typically located outside city areas. So I don’t expect huge numbers of people showing up but like I said, 1 or 2 people protesting is still worth it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._Air_Route_Traffic_Control_Centers?wprov=sfla1
So this is my protest idea. It’s one way to affect Trump adversely, a lot of federal employees are sick of this shit, THEY JUST NEED A REASON SO LET’S SHOW THEM WE WANT THEM TO FUCK TRUMP OVER
So you read all this and you’re still thinking “oh well nothing near me and I can’t do much” Well you probably do have a FAA airport near you with a control tower, you can protest there, or many other agencies that are run by the federal government. Finally you can copy this and spread it. You can edit it if you need to but just spread this idea.
Life in the USA cannot continue to go on as if this is all normal, something has to break! It’s Labor day weekend as I write this, let’s demonstrate labor still has the fucking power!
The military bases doing the imperialism are named after those guys and what the Confederacy wanted to do if they won the war was take over Cuba and Venezuela and rename the Gulf of Mexico the American Sea. America is what happens when you aren’t a tankie and quit Reconstruction.
yellow Michael Parenti about critical support:
And those who demand instant perfection, the day after the revolution, they get up and say “Are there civil liberties for the fascists? Are they going to be allowed to have their newspapers, and their radio programme? Are they going to be able to keep all their farms?” The passion that some of our liberals feel the day after the revolution, the passion and concern they feel for the fascists—the civil rights and civil liberties of those fascists who were dumping and destroying and murdering people before—now the revolution has got to be perfect! It’s got to be flawless! Well, that isn’t my criteria! My criteria is, what happens to those people who couldn’t read? What happens to those babies who couldn’t eat—that died of hunger? And there, that’s why I support revolution. The revolution that feeds the children gets my support! Not blindly, not unqualified. And the Reaganite government that tries to stop that kind of process, that tries to keep those people in poverty and illiteracy and hunger—that gets my undiluted animosity and opposition.
hahaha, HaHaHa, HAHAHA! The origin story for both the original Hexbear and Lemmygrad community is being banned from reddit for “promoting political violence” for John Brown memes and saying Sherman’s march to the sea was good. Perfect case of projection.
More like 19th century liberals: “We have to find a proper compromise with the slavers. I hate all of these tankie
RussianUnion bots saying this is about slavery. We all know this is about states rights and freedom!”Hey buddy, this isn’t reddit, we can mention how John Brown is objectively a Saint in any religion that may exist!
This meme is about modern morons who defend anything “anti-west”!
Liberal zionist harbara being like “opposition to Epstein Fury is only for tankie anti-west morons”.
Karl Marx was alive during the civil war. We know what he and his fellow communists thought about it. In fact, some of his fellow Communists were Forty-Eighters: German Radicals who were exiled after the failed revolutions of 1848, many of whom fought in the civil war.
One of them was August Willich, an ardent Communist who thought Marx of all people was too conservative. A “Tankie” of his day.
The German Communists, like Willich, who fought in the American Civil War believed that the war against slavery, and in the side of the Union, was a Social Revolution against the reactionary landed gentry of the south.
Many Forty-Eighters settled in Southwest, Ohio. If you go to the rapidly gentrifying Cincinnati neighborhood of Over The Rhine, it’s called that because it was originally made up of forty-eighter German immigrants, who became active participants in the underground railroad, and helped set up social programs to educate freed slaves, and provide them with housing and such.
So the only person lacking critical thinking here is you OP. You’ve made up a guy in your head, to get mad at.
Oh friend, you have this wrong, I agree 100%, sorry for not spelling it out! This meme is about the blind modern day teamist support for any “anti-west” regime, no matter how vile.
Don’t talk down to me. You made up a guy to get mad at. There is no human being on earth who holds the position you claim “Tankies” hold.
Delete this post.
We met different people then
So why are you listening unquestioningly to team pedophile and team genocide?
I am not OP but a Black anarchist vanguard.
I wouldn’t mention the latter occasionally because you’re still using lemmy, so you can’t see my «Politics» label.
I sat down to review all your historical assertions without a single citation. Meaning, I won’t cite back if you don’t.
Are there Achtundvierziger today, or similar vanguard parties?
Godric maybe projecting the trends a sees from camp threadiverse comments & posts, but do we even have a contemporary vanguard party doing praxis? PSL legitimately doesn’t count, so if you bring them as an example, we have nothing further to discuss. You can also work with Godric to end campist rhetorizing moving forward. Whenever you both see campism, hold them accountable. I believe all of us🧵 want to end campism. I in particularly want to see Dengism邓理论 gone forever.
Be aware that I use this instance exactly because I have given up on 习
. So honestly don’t bring it up.I am open for anything else.
Any additional questions?
Yeah, what in the ever living fuck are you talking about? This AI listicle-ass comment is genuinely illegible to me. I don’t understand what you’re trying to say
You’ve never seen an ordered list?
Want me to essay it?
The ordered list in that comment serves no purpose, as the items are not even properly grouped. It just hurts readability.
They are grouped by topics 1 respondent, 2 politics, 3 literacy confirmation, 4 thesis, 5 warning, 6 intersection check, 7 commentary, 8 openness to dialogue
So, at the very least:
- 1 and 2 pertain to the same topic. 2 even continues the same sentence.
- 4 and 5 should be grouped together, as 5 refers to 4.
- 6 and 7 should be grouped together. In part because they both are just regurgitation of propaganda made by y the same people that sold you on Nayirah’s testimony, Iraq WMDs and the like. (Also, have to chuckle at the “campism” but when you very openly engage in pro-NATO campism.)
- Just using standard paragraphs and not an ordered list would be more readable, since you are not enumerating anything, nor is there a good case for referring to each of these items by the numbers outside of the conversation about how useless the ordered list is here.
1 differentiates from op, 2 outlines my politics which may also differ from op. Continued sentences is something everyone does, no?
I can def. combine4&5, but will SpookyBogMonster keep quiet about point 4 if 5 is the only choice?
6&7 need to be separated, as 6 is my intersection for Godric’s plea to end campist rhetorics, not my personal antidengist praxis.
you very openly engage in pro-NATO campism
whence?
nor is there a good case for referring to each of these items by the numbers outside of the conversation
brevity, citation, referencing, value, formatting, etc…
I’ll edit an essay format you then.
A lot of people in the west think that Communists/Socialists are all leftwing, when there’s plenty of conservative traditionalist Communists.
There just more modern and outside the us, in places like China, Africa, Asia, and South America.
What liberals think tankies think:
The Confederacy fought the US, so that means I like them
What tankies actually think:
The US is the Confederacy and that’s why I hate it
Johnson was able to reintegrate the planters into the political establishment. Unfortunately, John Wilkes Booth won.
ITT: It’s better if USA balkanized
Gee, I wonder who are trying to advocate for this? Surely Russia and China who are attacking Ukraine and encroaching an entire body of ocean, respectively, aren’t the ones with an army of online trolls who are promoting this.
“Everyone I don’t agree with is a Russian bot” 🤡
You and this platform aren’t as important as you think.
*paid Russian shills and useful idiots want US to collapse to promote Russia and China own imperialism.
Happy?
You and this platform aren’t as important as you think.
Who cares about the platform? Unless you have superiority complex because you are speaking from well funded St Petersburg Research Institute, comrade?
Unfortunately USA works hard on the collapse on their own. 130% debt to GDP? WTF is this, Greek development strategy? On top of stupid trade wars and neglecting renewable energy sector…
Yes Americans are doing it on their own, but the usual suspects are accelerating it through hybrid warfare for obvious reasons. The Far East will become vulnerable to Chinese domination and Europe will become more vulnerable to Russian aggression (although I think even after the conflict in Ukraine, Russia will become second to China).
Europe will become more vulnerable to Russian aggression
Russian economy is fucked, they burned trade bridges left and right, sent their youth to die in meaningless war in Ukraine got trade sanctioned by most of civilized world, meanwhile China develops renewables and nuclear to reduce dependence on Russian oil exports. Russia is never going to recover.
China is growing to be the next leading global superpower whether we want it or not
Yeah, China will dominate. Democratic middle powers should prepare for a new world.
“Oh no, China gonna kill all if American hegemony over” 😂
No but ask Philippines, India, Taiwan, Japan and South Korea what could happen to them should communist China dominates. Even ask Vietnam, a country who should in theory align with China.
Keep simping for your team, comrade simperialist.
You tell us what could happen to them.
Of course simperialists such as yourself will never ask their victims and the people they want to dominate.
Roflmao what the fuck are you saying, that I should just phone call their presidents? Are you okay?
Gee, only Russian and Chinese bots could advocate for the Good Thing. Everyone that disagrees with me must be a Russian/Chinese bot.
only Russian and Chinese imperialists could advocate for the Good Thing
FTFY
No, broooo, trust me broooo, the nondemocracies that rival the world’s biggest democracy would never try to dishonestly influence voters, trust me brooooooooooo
the world’s biggest democracy
💀💀💀
The “world’s biggest democracy”? really? how can anyone with even a modicum of awareness still believe this in 2026 ?
“The world’s biggest democracy” 🤣. You have a two-party system, both of which advocate for the same foreign policy.
In the last century, could we do a comparison of the wars that “the world’s biggest democracy” engaged in, and look at how many of them were self-defense and how many of them were for imperialism? And comparing that to China and Russia might be a fun game as well.
Sure, the other two non-democracies you simp on is so much better and not engaging their own imperialist agenda and align with your own purported beliefs.
Find me one comment or post of mine where I “simped” for any country, I dare you.
I don’t engage with the “Chinese imperialist agenda” and shit because it’s so unserious, especially looking at what the U.S. has done EVERYWHERE. Have you fucking seen what life is like in Cuba, just because of U.S. sanctions and oil blockade? Do you know of the concentration camps that the U.S. used to torture completely innocent Arabs? Do you know just how much suffering America’s 9/11 craze caused?
And this is just contemporary, and I’m not listing everything.
Nobody is denying American imperialism. The question is, do you acknowledge Russian and Chinese imperialism?
“Do you condemn Hamas”-ass question.
No I don’t. I actually couldn’t care less. Do what I said in my original reply and you’ll find out why.
They’re technically correct. The British never stopped calling the American Revolution a rebellion; the difference is completely subjective. That said, fuck the Confederates, those bitches lost, so the leftovers need to suck it up and move on.
Tankie anthem that will get you banned from reddit and .world for promoting political violence.
Hellfire!I legitimately forgot what a banger that song is! Something I haven’t heard in years, but somehow I know every line, hahahaha
Supporting reactionary uprisings is actually the liberal thing.
Case in point - all the clamouring for slaver rulers in Tibet.The Tibet thing is just CCP propaganda
Don’t know what “CCP” is, but it’s pretty silly how brazenly you ignore reality just because your masters told you that “Iraq has WMDs” again.
CCP is the chinese communist party. Who brought up Iraq?!?!
Yep, that’s the quote from every liberal: “Yay slavery”
-The average dipshit redcap uncle, and/or Tomorrow_Farewell
I mean I don’t know what you’re trying to say here cuz yeah that’s objectively correct. Liberals valued the concept of private property so incredibly highly that slavery was extended and preserved in most of the world when it didn’t need to be. That is undeniably their legacy.
Considering how many liberals support things like returning slavery to Tibet, or enslaving Libya, or doing similar things to Syria, Palestine, Korea, Russia, Afghanistan, etc. they might as well be saying that.
Hell, you do support NATO attacking and subjugating the rest of the world, so why pretend as if I don’t have any examples?
Speaking of examples, you haven’t pointed out any socialists who supported the Confederacy at the time, nor any socialists who do now.
Don’t forget how they will also criticize western leftists and progressives endlessly for not being perfect and not even mention the right wing or non-western dictators. Bernie Sanders and AOC are apparently basically Nazis but Stalin was fiiiiine and who even cares about keeping fascists out of power.
Obligatory fuck the USSR, rest in piss
Europe will never forgive the USSR for things like the 8-hour working day, women’s rights, fighting against colonialism (including Germany and Japan, but also including many other places, like Vietnam, Mozambique, Korea, etc.), massively improving life expectancy and education, guaranteed housing, and otherwise improving workers’ living conditions.
We didn’t rely on the USSR for the 8-hour working day or women’s rights
Don’t forget how the idea of anti-authoritarianism is just reactionary and therefore can be hand-waved away. Dictatorships are cool as long as they align with the “correct” principles.
I’ve said this in another comment, so likewise I’ll preface that I’m not from the US so I use liberal as in classical liberalism, but under a materialist interpretation that I’m prone to agree with, liberalism is a bourgeois conservative ideology, thus a liberal is inherently in favor of the status quo and capitalism. So really, it’s not about perfection, but rather an irreconcilable difference, or a contradiction, if you will. This is not to say that progressive liberals/social democrats can’t enact meaningful material reforms, but usually not without confounding factors.
As for excusing Stalin and dismissing the opposition from progressives against the real threat of the far right, can’t say I’m fond of the tribalism so common, but not exclusively, with MLs either.
Yes, OUTSIDE of the western bubble, the concept of right wing communists is pretty common. But as soon as westerners see it they’re like “Why are you Communist AND criticizing the progressive left?”
Welcome to your first encounter with right/conservative/traditionalist or Nationalist Communism.
This is not a difficult thing to grasp:
Communism/Socialism are ECONOMIC as well as political philosophies. So you can have ECONOMIC views that can have either left or right POLITICAL philosophies attached.
Understand?
This meme is just libel. There’s no way a tankie would support the Confederacy
Zionazis like godric are experts in libel
One would think so, but then we see the wild mental gymnastics going on to defend Russia. Pretty wild stuff!
I have seen more wild mental gymnastics from people defending the most prolific invader in the world (i.e. NATO) and claims that the rest of the world is bad for defending itself against it.
On that note, what do you think a state should do when the most prolific invader in the world starts amassing troops on its borders (or otherwise in position to attack, like with Iran), especially after said invader carries out a coup against a neighbouring state?
You do know NATO is a defensive alliance, right? The USA doing invading with some allies is not the same as NATO doing it.
It’s consistent. Their goal isn’t to uplift the West to leftist values, it’s to destroy the West for the sake of Chinese or Russian realpolitik or just plain anti-colonial revenge. A deeply Balkanized US that kills itself and diminishes its own power is one of the best things they could hope for.
A balkanized US is the best thing I could ask for too and I hate tankies
And all of the economic suffering for the lower classes which will happen if balkanization happens?
Are you fine with all the suffering that “the lower classes” are to continue to be subjected to in the case of the US continuing to exist as is, then?
Economic suffering of the lower classes is already guaranteed, as it has been for many decades in the USA, worse and worse practically every year.
The federal government is incredibly expensive, and not worth the cost; we really would be okay without a world-dominating military that can attack anywhere in the world in 24 hours. Our state governments are 100% capable and there is no need of the redundancy.
The FED goliath all costs much more than the returns, and only makes the military and banker profiteers wealthy.
You don’t seem to understand economies of scale
Yes your feds are inefficient, but the cause isn’t simply size, it’s deliberate wastefulness for political points
And that can be changed
And what are you going to do post-balkanization when the southern states decide to legalize slavery?
Economic suffering of the lower classes is already guaranteed, as it has been for many decades in the USA, worse and worse practically every year.
Literally not. There are ways to reduce suffering via a UBI + rent stabilization + jobs bills like we’ve done in the past, for instance. It happened during covid—we have the infrastructure. That alone could offset a shitton of unnecessary suffering while they figure out a new economic model. A UBI can be temporary or not if necessary. Point is—there are options. You just gave up is all. That’s a you problem. “Economic suffering of the lower classes is already guaranteed”
Even if there is suffering that is going to happen, balkanization is not the best option. It just takes some creative thinking by people.
Pales in comparison to the economic benefit to the global working class if US imperialism ends.
Still not good that workers will suffer, but US balkanization would be a good thing for humanity at large.
Power vacuums doesn’t benefit anybody
I mean, I agree that balkanization isn’t the most ideal scenario. I’d much rather see a socialist revolution take over the whole country. Much better outcomes for nearly everyone.
What state do you live in?
Are you suggesting that the only people who get to have an opinion about the US live within its borders?
That’s pretty out of line when the US is currently aggressing multiple other countries
Why does that matter to the argument at hand?
Lets them know their opinion is worthless because they can’t answer the question. If they say “not from the states” who will listen to them?
Is not being balkanized by fascists right now‽
No because that’s not what Balkanization means. Balkanization is the process by which a country splits into various smaller countries, like what happened to the former Yugoslavia.
The US is increasingly dysfunctional, but it’s still in one piece
Then why did they rename the Gulf of Mexico and Lake Ontario‽
They’ve not been renamed. Trump proclaimed it from his ass and twelve people on earth with access to a popular driving app accepted it and changed the names on the said app.
Renaming bodies of water isn’t balkanization either…
deleted by creator
Every large country should be balkanized.
I’d say the opposite.
Countries should be deeply tied together, both internally and externally.
Isolation and little fiefdoms are what the right wing monsters want. Little kingdoms where accountability is optional.
They can be tied together voluntarily under a system that isn’t the autocratic nation state.
Look at the world today. The biggest countries are all the worst exporters of right-wing autocracy. So I think your analysis is very backwards.
The largest countries who all stand alone and refuse to truly tie themselves to the international community.
I think you’ve missed the point.
Large nations can only maintain themselves through oppression. The dynamic of voluntary association with other nations is very different from that. Unity can be good or bad. It depends on the context.
Germany is arguably the heart of the EU and also has arguably the most concerningly powerful far right wing in the EU.
Wait are we all meant to be pro-US?
One of our biggest, and honestly most important, exports is entertainment. Movies. Books. Television.
Lots of those about WW2. Lots of different stories to tell there and make ourselves the hero.
Especially when most of the time spent between 1945 and 1994 was spent with the USA having a dick measuring contest against the USSR. And we’ve very much proven ourselves to be the biggest dicks.
Could you really blame Putin for his role in this information war, given this context?
Not saying he’s right. Just saying he’s justified. Tit for tat.
We didn’t invent the printing press for sending greeting cards. We didn’t even invent the printing press…but we sure make people think we did.
The biggest export is propaganda.
Trash graphic. 49 year gap, 10 year gap, 11 year gap. Absolute trash.
Hahaha. I’m surprised only one of you got triggered.
Truly! I defiantly thought I’d have the safety of numbers on this front lol
I guess we’ve got some history enjoyers here 🤓
I don’t get it.
Lemmy.ml users in particular will defend fucking ANYTHING done in opposition to The West. Like they love to support Russia against Ukraine.
Also any time you say NK is a dictatorship they come out of the basement to say how awesome it is.
I was gonna try to defend my comrades for not being that brain dead then I saw the only other Lemmy.ml guy on this thread actively proving your point lmao
Its okay if you still want to. I find that they have a point in their grievances or pointing out how we in the west often fail at living up to our own proposed values of democracy and equality. I do get why they feel so strongly that they push to take it all, but the all or nothing is often counter productive I feel. Particularly given how much work they need to do with the general public that is not ready for some topics.
I stopped replying to one of them when they denied the holodomor or the chinese famine.
Its quite disheartening that we can’t even agree on a common reality.
I’ve been called all sorts of names just for asking for real evidence instead of flimsy suggestive bullshit. It took SO much pressing to get anything at all on the Ukrainian Nazi line they love so much, and I got SO much hostility for it.
Propaganda will do that. I’ve never met a single communist who denied that there was a major famine in China. The problem is that liberals seem to think Mao invented famine, when in fact China was experiencing famines every 2 to 4 years for over a century by the time the communists came to power. They had a theory for how to address the cycle of famines and increase food surplus, and their theory failed. But liberals think that Mao deliberately killed millions of people because he was an evil dictator instead of acknowledging the reality that Mao was leader of a massive government and they all failed as an organization by producing the conditions for famine. The context is also lost that eventually the Chinese revolution did end the cycle of famines permanently, and they were trying to solve it without any help from Western agriculture because the West was too busy protecting the fascist dictator that was holed up in Taiwan who was actively mass murdering and imprisoning political dissidents.
The Holodomor is another one of those things propaganda skews and breaks our ability to agree to a shared reality on. I have never met a single communist that denies that there was a famine and that many people died. What they often cite, which liberals can’t reconcile, is that the famine affected many more populations than just the people who were supposedly targeted and that research into the incident shows that the crop yield was severely negatively impacted by weather and made worse by not just bad decision making but also bad decision making that was in part driven by punitive thinking. The famine happened, but propaganda would have us believe that the famine was unquestionably a deliberate attempt at ethnic cleansing or genocide, when the evidence seems to be far more in support of a natural famine made worse by poor management with an added dose of maliciousness that ultimately rolls up to bad management.
In contrast, you don’t seem to have any problem with most Westerners having never even heard of the famines that were in fact deliberately caused by the West and for which the only explanation is the active choice of making a colonized population suffer.
Both the Holodomor and Chinese famine were caused by politicians that ignore actual agrarian science from actual farmers with actual farming experience. The bad yield was caused precisely by this ignoring of proven science. And the Holodomor had been especially bad for Ukraine because it was the USSR’s bread basket because the Soviet authorities extracted as much food as possible, mirroring the Great Famine in Ireland when the British imperialists exported food from Ireland despite the massive starvation.
The Chinese failure of agriculture was under embargo from the West’s proven science and supply chains. They were forced to come up with their own solutions from scratch from a starting position that was far far behind the rest of the world.
Lysenko was operating in a world where the West had developed the theory of the gene but not yet proven the gene existed and the West immediately developed it into eugenics from its racist tyrannical fascist politics, and Lysenko and the politicians were reacting to that. While Europeans were going around saying “genetics is real therefore we should kill all the poors and the browns before they taint our bloodline”, the Soviets were saying “if we improve social conditions then people will heal for generations to come”.
I know we are literally awash in comic book level propaganda where the evil Soviets were dastardly lying to everyone for power and control, but if you actually read the history, the narratives we have been fed start to look a lot like outright lies.
100% if they had followed the science they would have done better, but science is not apolitical, research on heredity especially so, and without any molecular basis for the theory of genetics, it looks a lot like master race politics.
Farmer knowledge and know how wasn’t embargoed by the West. Lysenko and Mao were just idiots who didn’t listen to experts despite warnings. Also, people already knew about genetic inheritance long before the 20th century, even if DNA wasn’t discovered yet. You are just white washing the truth.
Least obvious and prepared tankie shill answer.
Yes, argicultural technology was absolutely embargoed from China by the West. What world do you live in? The Foreign Assets Control Act was relatively comprehensive and then a year later the “UN” adopted a total collective embargo.
It wasn’t embargoed from the USSR. But that was before the Green Revolution anyway. Everyone in the world was heavily subject to crop failures, like the 50% crop failure in the US Dust Bowl in the 30s. It’s not like there was a known good recipe to solving famine cycles during the first 2 decades of the Russian revolution.
The idea that Mao was an idiot is neither borne by the evidence nor useful as an explanation. He was clearly effective for long periods of time for highly complex problem spaces. But he made a similar class of mistakes to the mistakes that the USSR did in agriculture. Mistakes that they eventually corrected.
Seriously. Was Holodomor a deliberate genocide? This is the hill you’re going to die on? Yes, the famine affected a lot of people, but we all know which people were least affected and it wasn’t the Ukrainians who were trying to actually grow the food. Much like the Irish Famine was only a tragic genocide because the British overlords wouldn’t put up with reducing their own take. The blight was real, but the decimation was pure unjustified cruelty.
I’m a leftist, but I’m an honest one. We gain nothing by denying the past and refusing to learn from it. It does a disservice to us all to hide the fact that old ethnic and cultural violence behind a window dressing of systemic failure. Systemic bigotry is still bigotry.
The kazhaks lost more people per capita than Ukraine did. Major non-Ukrainian Russian populations centers suffered equally or very nearly as much as Ukraine did.
So you may think you’re an honest leftist, but you might not be. As an honest leftist myself, I recognize that the Soviet government made tragic decisions, many of them punitive, none of them directed at ethnic cleansing, because the Soviet Union did not have an analysis that included specific ethnicities being material to their political goals as ethnicities. They understood, documented, wrote about, discussed, debated, legislated, and enforced the exact opposite of ethnic cleansing constantly. Yes, Ukranian suffered a lot through the transition to collectivized agriculture, more than most. But that’s because the majority of Ukranian peasants were freeholders of land, whereas the majority of Russian peasants were serfs. As freeholders, they would lose their claim to their farms. Serfs would suffer no such loss. This was structural. Russian peasants weren’t targeted for collectivization because under the Tsar they were already collectivized, whereas Ukranian peasants had private ownership of the land they worked.
Collectivization was not ethnic cleansing, the famine was not ethnically targeted, and the punitive actions of the Soviet Union were not ethnically motivated by an ethnic strategy of ethnic supremacy.
That’s honesty. Honesty is doing the reading, doing the research, and not discarding all the evidence that contradicts the obviously contrived narrative. Yes there was a famine. Yes it killed more Ukranians in absolute numbers. Yes the Soviet leadership made deliberate decisions that were intended to punish people who were Ukranians. No it wasn’t because they were Ukranian, no it wasn’t because the Soviet leadership thought that ethnic cleansing would achieve their intended goals, no it’s not because the Soviet leadership decided to artificially starve all of those people out of malice or ethnic supremacy.
Do you have a link to tankies denying there was an unwanted famine?
Holodomor was an unwanted famine that was redurected (food taken from farmers). Later wider famines were made worse mostly by Lysenkoism. A con-job which effected Russia and China.
Yet Communism is compared to Nazi? That’s what’s ridiculous liberal/right propaganda.
What happened is much more forgivable (although still regrettable) than what say the millions killed by the East India companies through intentional famines under Capitalism (done for profit), or the hundreds of millions in war dead from Capitalism in the past 30 years.
That’s much more recent, but some redirected famine from the 1930s keeps coming up when talk of Socialism makes wealthy liberals a little too uncomfortable.
What is an “unwanted famine”? Nobody wanted a famine. Lysenko was wrong, and the government backed him because they didn’t know he was wrong. It was a mistake, not a deliberate strategem to harm people.
Exactly.
As a .ml user, I hereby denounce the states’ rights to own slaves for which this war was fought. The confederates were not fighting against “the west”, they were fighting for racism and bigotry.
However, I do offer critical support to Hasan Piker, and think Americans should take a long hard look at foreign policy which led to the 9/11 attack. It’s the worst it’s ever been now, giving taxpayer dollars to Israel for them to purchase American politicians and order them to bankroll and provide cover for ongoing genocide and destabilization of the region so that Israel can steal more land. Like owning slaves, rank imperialism and land theft is wrong, especially post-globalization.
I’m not entering this argument, but I can see how “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” may be a thought process there.
Yeah, in a vacuum, sounds like a solid idea. Russia isn’t that friend, though.
I think the argument is:
China bad because of their human rights record. Where as the west can judge them (being from the same culture and all) because the west has a perfect human rights record. What you disagree? \s
It’s super weird when Liberals forget about Iraq, Afghanistan, Indigenous Genocides, Racial Profiling and the war on terror, Gitmo, Palestine, and Slavery all at once.
“Oh but in the past China and Russia had famines”.
They don’t realize they’re effected by 100 years of conservative messaging.
That is the thought process being mocked, yes
I think this explanation makes the meme even more confusing 😭
The Confederacy was fighting against the United States. Under tankie logic, that must mean that they’re virtuous and attempting to build communism. In reality, they were fighting to preserve chattel slavery.
Okay but Lenin considered the US Civil to be good actually
But what a pedant, what an idiot would anyone be to deny on these grounds the immense, world-historic, progressive and revolutionary significance of the American Civil War of 1863-65!
The representatives of the bourgeoisie understand that for the sake of overthrowing Negro slavery, of overthrowing the rule of the slaveowners, it was worth letting the country go through long years of civil war, through the abysmal ruin, destruction and terror that accompany every war. But now, when we are confronted with the vastly greater task of overthrowing capitalist wage-slavery, of overthrowing the rule of the bourgeoisie—now, the representatives and defenders of the bourgeoisie, and also the reformist socialists who have been frightened by the bourgeoisie and are shunning the revolution, cannot and do not want to understand that civil war is necessary and legitimate.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/aug/20.htm
Yes. But these topics about tankies are about reinforcing ‘us/them’ rationalizations for those who already have their prejudice. The comments here certainly do.
By providing a critical thinking from Lenin, you instead become the tankie, and therefore become incapable of critical thinking, per the meme. Therefore anything Lenin might’ve said or written can just be dismissed.
And so the tankie can be mocked as a confederate chud nonetheless.
I had to read this a few times because I am high and thought you were being serious 😭
I don’t want to people to think I’m knowledgeable or well read or anything I just googled it because I wasn’t sure what the meme was trying to say.
And? You seem to be under the delusion that tankies have actually read anything by their heroes.
I think you’re mistaking the lunatic left for the lunatic right. The left usually did their homework at least. Better than the right who refuse to acknowledge what they call “Capitalism” has nothing to do with the foundational principles of the theory.
This is a straw man. Tankie logic clearly understands the concept of factions and factional disputes within a larger system. The US had two major bourgeois factions within it - agrarian raw materials producers/merchants and industrialists. These two factions were fighting for their faction’s existence and ultimately the power to dominate their colonized subjects in the way that seemed most beneficial to their faction.
If you aren’t American: Depicted are American civil war reenactors with the flag of the Confederacy which seceded from the Union of the United States in the 19th century due to built up tensions regarding slavery. The Confederacy were ultimately fighting to keep slavery as a government institution.
The target of the joke are tankies (described briskly above), which we will see on Lemmy, often see any action taken against the US or the EU (the West) as praiseworthy, blatantly disregarding or downplaying equivalent or worse actions from non-western nations.
The subversion of expectation here is that a tankie would see the pro-slavery Confederacy as praiseworthy because they’re fighting the US government, despite the Confederacy’s blatantly immoral cause.
Caveat - I say this with bias as someone explicitly against authoritarian bootlickers, like tankies.
Thank you for your efforts, I really do appreciate it. It makes discussion a lot more accessable to people who do not know the details of US history. I am not american myself but unfortunately I have family who live in Kennesaw. I hope that’s self explanatory 🥲
I guess the joke doesn’t make sense because Lenin thought it was based that the civil war happened because slavery is wack.
You need to tell that to the tankies. We already know it here. They are the ones having problems understanding that.
Sorry tell the tankies what?
Tankies: “Any enemy of the US is my ally”.
It is a zero sum game for them. They are incapable of thinking that while the US sucks, their enemies can also suck.
Strawman. Tankies literally have a phrase for this. It’s called “critical support”, which means supporting the efforts of anti-imperialism while reserving the right to criticize without that critique rising to the level of reversing the support for the anti-imperialist action
It is a zero sum game for them.
Who is “them” exactly here? Are you listening to teenagers on TikTok and extrapolating a whole ideology here? Tankies aren’t anti-American by definition. Someone is feeding you some pretty twisted propaganda.
I mean I kinda get it. The biggest obstacle to World Peace today is the US. So you could make the argument that anything that opposes US Hegemony gets us closer to world peace. Idk that I would go so far as to “support Russia” but I understand the logic.
Please don’t defend them. These kinds of arguments lack any kind of deeper thought or nuance. It’s literally just trolling and straw-men. Do not feed the trolls.
These kinds of arguments lack any kind of deeper thought or nuance.
I mean that’s what Zionists say about Pro Palestine group. That’s what Americans said about resistance groups in the middle east. That’s what Americans said about the Natives.
I just disagree with this entire philosophy. You should be able understand an argument you disagree with.
I didn’t say don’t understand them, I’m saying they’re literally not thinking that deeply about it. They want to get a rise out of you and someone showed them they can do that by opening with a straw-man like this. By deliberately misrepresenting what “Tankie” means they can completely disarm it and force you to defend a position they chose, which they know is indefensible. It’s pure rhetorical strategy, they don’t actually know or care what a Tankie thinks. They’re trying to make the word mean something it never has and never should mean. Is it possible someone on their side has done some work to rationalize their twisted interpretation. That rationalization is usually paper thin and almost no one on their side knows or cares about it besides its usefulness as a tactical fallback. They don’t believe any of this, its a rhetorical game and the point is their nihilistic disregard for consequences.
That sounds like a description of every troll. Tbh I keep hearing tankie thrown around, but I’ve never had the conversations people who complain about it have.
Tankie is a general term for someone who thinks there is a clear justification to use force or the threat of force to impose a socialist system on a state. The term originates with people who supported the USSR “Sending in the tanks” to annex other countries and crush dissent from people in their sphere. They are what people mean when they “If you go far enough left, you get your guns back.” These days they tend to be a tiny minority within the rather small minority of actual leftists. They do exist, and some of them are pretty out there, but not the way the .ml crowd tends to characterize them. They’re terrified of them, because in their heads the most terrifying thing in the world is a leftist that is willing to fight back, and they don’t recognize anything that doesn’t kill someone as “fighting.”
It’s literally just trolling and straw-men
And sealioning, can’t forget that.
Blocking them and moving on is usually the best option. They’ll ruin your day given the chance.
Oh and if they violate the rules of where they’re posting, report them before blocking.
The kind of revolutionaries they support are morally bankrupt. Like Che Guevara was a complete dick who committed war crimes in order to help install an authoritarian regime in Cuba. Or how Mao got more people killed than anyone in human history and not just his enemies, his supporters too.
What was confusing was the example chosen because it is something Lenin had a position on. Which was the opposite of what was shown. I am coming to understand it’s meant as an absurd example to criticize “tankies” but I guess this example only makes sense if you don’t know that.
I’m also confused about the usage of critical support being contrasted to critical thinking because critical support means applying critical thinking to a situation instead of blanket support. But I guess if you aren’t looking at something with the same values that can be hard to see.
Edit: used an abelist term without realizing it.
Lenin agreed with the union, because slavery is bad. Tankies, because they cherry pick the history they pay attention to would likely ignore that and cheer for the Confederacy. It’s what they do. It’s not that confusing.
I thought tankies was a rude name for Marxist Leninists? I couldn’t tell if the meme was making fun of people who use the term tankie or Marxist Leninists which is why I said I didn’t get it, but I get it now.
Because it doesn’t make sense.
