Nah, your just missing the point that being able to say “America is somewhat bad” makes up for fully supporting all of the US’s foreign policy positions. There must be genocide in Xinjiang because the fascist evangelical German that wrote a book about how cool the apocalypse will be because you get to watch all the Jews burn in a lake of fire said that it is a genocide. It is only half of why you have to hate the ICC because they err the other way by saying that Israel is committing genocide. So they are silent on the Chinese genocide while being wrong about the Palestinian “genocide”.
Or maybe it’s okay to call out bullshit on your own side?
America has committed a LOT of atrocities. Trail of Tears. Pine Ridge. Slavery for god’s sake. Fuck, we invaded the wrong country after 9/11 and let Saudi get away with sponsoring it. Then we have the Monroe Doctrine and South America plus all the Middle Eastern governments that we overthrew. The nuking of Japan was the decision to save millions of soldiers at the expense of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Fewer lives, yes, but it’s rather difficult to justify the murder of the innocent. We’re propping up Israel and allowing them to commit atrocities against the Palestinians. At this point, the US and Israel are the only real parties in the way of a two-state solution. Hamas could easily be taken care of without the killing of Palestinians who just want to be safe and secure.
Die-hard tankies refuse to call out anything on their own side (or the enemy of their enemies) and that’s the problem OP is bringing up. If that doesn’t describe you, then great, I’m not talking about you. There’s no good-faith way to support modern day Russia and the invasion of Ukraine.
Or maybe it’s okay to call out bullshit on your own side?
Too bad that every time people say they do this against tankies, it turns out to just be regurgitation of propaganda of the genocidaires of Palestine, and tankies keep being proven to be correct.
Hamas could easily be taken care of without the killing of Palestinians who just want to be safe and secure.
“The resistance to nazi Germany could easily be taken care of without the killing of the Jewish and Slavic people, who just want to be safe and secure”.
Die-hard tankies refuse to call out anything on their own side
Except we do. This includes both the people you would meet online, as well as people who have actually been in positions of power (case in point - Castro’s handling of LGBT rights).
If that doesn’t describe you, then great, I’m not talking about you.
Does it describe anybody? Can you point to any such cases?
There’s no good-faith way to support modern day Russia and the invasion of Ukraine.
This is only true if you think that the rest of the world has no right to defend itself against the most prolific invader in the world (i.e. NATO) when the latter starts amassing troops on said state’s border after having been pushing for war for at least years.
Furthermore, Ukraine has been targeting civilians and nuclear power plants, as well as brazenly committing war crimes like the operation SpiderWeb where they use (probably unwitting) civilians to carry out military action.
Furthermore, the post-coup government of Ukraine is awful for reasons such as being filled with open nazis, worshipping the nazis that carried out the genocides in WW2, selling off Ukraine’s resources to NATO’s oligarchs, etc.
The only sort of argument in favour of supporting Ukraine that people seem to give is that Russia put troops in Ukraine first, instead of waiting for NATO to do the inverse.
On that note, what do you think a state should do when the most prolific invader in the world starts amassing troops on that state’s border, or otherwise in position to strike (like in the case of Iran)?
No, it is not the unwillingness to call out infractions. It is more the extreme disproportionality of liberals. The invasion of Ukraine is such a historical evil that any explanation of it (outlawing of Russian in school and government documents, being worried about NATO expansion, etc.) is excusing the Putin Regime that does evil only because they like evil and have no other motivation than maximizing evil. So any Russian that isn’t currently attempting to overthrow the government is an evil orc that deserves death.
But all of the wars of aggression and invasions the US made in the 21st century means that the US is slightly flawed and being too left or wanting to overthrow the government is too far. We need to hold our nose and vote for Democrats because they might make the invasions slightly more limited and be more polite while funding the Israeli genocide.
But that is actually the real issue that Liberals take issue with. Explaining that there are motivations beyond Putin being evil and that all of the US’s wars of aggression makes it the worst state in the current world, rather than a flawed and imperfect democracy that should still be the model for the world is what makes one a tankie.
The invasion of Ukraine is such a historical evil that any explanation of it (outlawing of Russian in school and government documents, being worried about NATO expansion, etc.) is excusing the Putin Regime that does evil only because they like evil and have no other motivation than maximizing evil. So any Russian that isn’t currently attempting to overthrow the government is an evil orc that deserves death.
At what point did I say anything resembling that? The war is an evil war and I cheer any Russian fighting against it but I don’t believe it’s “such a historical evil” nor do I believe that Russians deserve death just because they aren’t fighting against it. Shit, if I believed that, I’d have to believe the same about a lot of people in the US, too, wouldn’t I?
But all of the wars of aggression and invasions the US made in the 21st century means that the US is slightly flawed
Did you not read what I wrote above or…?
wanting to overthrow the government is too far.
Yes, it is, but probably not for the reasons you think. Revolutions rarely are successful, even if you win. They’re usually coalitions of common enemies who rarely agree on what they want. They’re often led by opportunistic figureheads who want to take advantage of the position. There will be tens of millions who die. I can’t imagine any political belief can be worth that many lives.
The Declaration of Independence has been considered one of the most influential doctrines of all time for a good reason. There’s a single sentence in it which I find rather relevant: “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”
Would you not agree that there have been moments in the US history where, if progress continued, we’d be at a position that was acceptable to you? If so, you have to also believe that we can still get back to that place.
On top of all that… How much of the US do you think agree with your views? How are you going to experience long-term success with little buy-in?
We need to hold our nose and vote for Democrats because they might make the invasions slightly more limited and be more polite while funding the Israeli genocide.
Nah, that really does suck, I agree with you. But don’t you think that replacing our FPTP method of electing politicians, reducing the power of the Executive branch, and adding much stronger guardrails, oversight, and penalties against corruption might be a more effective method to achieving your goals? Most people are in favor of these policies. Why do you claim you’re willing to take up arms when you can’t even knock on your neighbor’s door?
Explaining that there are motivations beyond Putin being evil and that all of the US’s wars of aggression makes it the worst state in the current world, rather than a flawed and imperfect democracy that should still be the model for the world is what makes one a tankie.
I understand why Putin wants Ukraine. They have large mineral deposits which can help accelerate economic growth while their rich farmland can provide quite a bit of food for the people of Russia. I also know that these reasons aren’t much different than those that America has fought for in wars during the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. Again, you can agree that both things are fucked.
I am impressed by everyone’s endurance in this thread. This is good stuff. I don’t think anyone has even called anyone names yet. I am very happy about this outcome. Upvotes for everyone!
Nah, they didn’t miss the point at all, they’re just intentionally acting in bad faith.
Nah, your just missing the point that being able to say “America is somewhat bad” makes up for fully supporting all of the US’s foreign policy positions. There must be genocide in Xinjiang because the fascist evangelical German that wrote a book about how cool the apocalypse will be because you get to watch all the Jews burn in a lake of fire said that it is a genocide. It is only half of why you have to hate the ICC because they err the other way by saying that Israel is committing genocide. So they are silent on the Chinese genocide while being wrong about the Palestinian “genocide”.
What is even happening in this thread…
Is there a cliffs notes for this shit? Who did what to whom now? I am completely lost.
That’s why I vote Trump. Third time’s the charm!
Or maybe it’s okay to call out bullshit on your own side?
America has committed a LOT of atrocities. Trail of Tears. Pine Ridge. Slavery for god’s sake. Fuck, we invaded the wrong country after 9/11 and let Saudi get away with sponsoring it. Then we have the Monroe Doctrine and South America plus all the Middle Eastern governments that we overthrew. The nuking of Japan was the decision to save millions of soldiers at the expense of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Fewer lives, yes, but it’s rather difficult to justify the murder of the innocent. We’re propping up Israel and allowing them to commit atrocities against the Palestinians. At this point, the US and Israel are the only real parties in the way of a two-state solution. Hamas could easily be taken care of without the killing of Palestinians who just want to be safe and secure.
Die-hard tankies refuse to call out anything on their own side (or the enemy of their enemies) and that’s the problem OP is bringing up. If that doesn’t describe you, then great, I’m not talking about you. There’s no good-faith way to support modern day Russia and the invasion of Ukraine.
Too bad that every time people say they do this against tankies, it turns out to just be regurgitation of propaganda of the genocidaires of Palestine, and tankies keep being proven to be correct.
“The resistance to nazi Germany could easily be taken care of without the killing of the Jewish and Slavic people, who just want to be safe and secure”.
Except we do. This includes both the people you would meet online, as well as people who have actually been in positions of power (case in point - Castro’s handling of LGBT rights).
Does it describe anybody? Can you point to any such cases?
This is only true if you think that the rest of the world has no right to defend itself against the most prolific invader in the world (i.e. NATO) when the latter starts amassing troops on said state’s border after having been pushing for war for at least years.
Furthermore, Ukraine has been targeting civilians and nuclear power plants, as well as brazenly committing war crimes like the operation SpiderWeb where they use (probably unwitting) civilians to carry out military action.
Furthermore, the post-coup government of Ukraine is awful for reasons such as being filled with open nazis, worshipping the nazis that carried out the genocides in WW2, selling off Ukraine’s resources to NATO’s oligarchs, etc.
The only sort of argument in favour of supporting Ukraine that people seem to give is that Russia put troops in Ukraine first, instead of waiting for NATO to do the inverse.
On that note, what do you think a state should do when the most prolific invader in the world starts amassing troops on that state’s border, or otherwise in position to strike (like in the case of Iran)?
No, it is not the unwillingness to call out infractions. It is more the extreme disproportionality of liberals. The invasion of Ukraine is such a historical evil that any explanation of it (outlawing of Russian in school and government documents, being worried about NATO expansion, etc.) is excusing the Putin Regime that does evil only because they like evil and have no other motivation than maximizing evil. So any Russian that isn’t currently attempting to overthrow the government is an evil orc that deserves death.
But all of the wars of aggression and invasions the US made in the 21st century means that the US is slightly flawed and being too left or wanting to overthrow the government is too far. We need to hold our nose and vote for Democrats because they might make the invasions slightly more limited and be more polite while funding the Israeli genocide.
But that is actually the real issue that Liberals take issue with. Explaining that there are motivations beyond Putin being evil and that all of the US’s wars of aggression makes it the worst state in the current world, rather than a flawed and imperfect democracy that should still be the model for the world is what makes one a tankie.
At what point did I say anything resembling that? The war is an evil war and I cheer any Russian fighting against it but I don’t believe it’s “such a historical evil” nor do I believe that Russians deserve death just because they aren’t fighting against it. Shit, if I believed that, I’d have to believe the same about a lot of people in the US, too, wouldn’t I?
Did you not read what I wrote above or…?
Yes, it is, but probably not for the reasons you think. Revolutions rarely are successful, even if you win. They’re usually coalitions of common enemies who rarely agree on what they want. They’re often led by opportunistic figureheads who want to take advantage of the position. There will be tens of millions who die. I can’t imagine any political belief can be worth that many lives.
The Declaration of Independence has been considered one of the most influential doctrines of all time for a good reason. There’s a single sentence in it which I find rather relevant: “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”
Would you not agree that there have been moments in the US history where, if progress continued, we’d be at a position that was acceptable to you? If so, you have to also believe that we can still get back to that place.
On top of all that… How much of the US do you think agree with your views? How are you going to experience long-term success with little buy-in?
Nah, that really does suck, I agree with you. But don’t you think that replacing our FPTP method of electing politicians, reducing the power of the Executive branch, and adding much stronger guardrails, oversight, and penalties against corruption might be a more effective method to achieving your goals? Most people are in favor of these policies. Why do you claim you’re willing to take up arms when you can’t even knock on your neighbor’s door?
I understand why Putin wants Ukraine. They have large mineral deposits which can help accelerate economic growth while their rich farmland can provide quite a bit of food for the people of Russia. I also know that these reasons aren’t much different than those that America has fought for in wars during the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. Again, you can agree that both things are fucked.
I am impressed by everyone’s endurance in this thread. This is good stuff. I don’t think anyone has even called anyone names yet. I am very happy about this outcome. Upvotes for everyone!