It was wrong when the West did it, and it’s wrong when China does it. And it’s wrong that it’s a fact that this statement is somehow controversial.
America is gearing up to put illegals, brown people, women who don’t want kids/women who believe in women’s right to choose, and the LGBTQ+ in slave labor camps.
A lot of the immigrant labor has been at least slave-like for decades too. Under constant threat of deportation on their “employer’s” whim. Fairly common for “employers” to take documented worker’s documentation to hold them hostage. Reports of some farmers housing and working workers fenced-in, having them working under gunpoint. Some farmers have been caught buying and selling immigrants amongst each-other. I remember a report of a meatpacking plant calling ICE on its own employees to have them deported after they started asking for better treatment, then just hiring more immigrants to replace them. Hell, I even remember near where I grew up, you could see the shed-like shacks from the road on one farm where they kept the migrant workers; no electricity, didn’t look like they had any running water either.
ie. American prison
Yep. And their action doesn’t justify or excuse China’s or vice versa. It’s bad regardless who’s doing it.
Not my point. We act so high and mighty while a literally rapist is in the white house and is talking about needing more babies for labor… We are speed larping the Handmaids Tale but the DM can only read at a fifth grade level.
Edit: we as a society seem to envy China but want to do it our way… The white male Christian way… That’s my point.
Who’s we? I’m calling both out.
this statement is somehow controversial.
Here? No. On ml? Enjoy your ban you westoid scum!
having jobs isnt bad
Your half truths have no power here.
Having a job close to your family in a place you know and want to live AND work with salary, benefits and options to switch is not bad.
agreed, but most people don’t have that lol, especially when they originally live away from urban centers. the fuck you are talking about. you guys are the ones coming out with half truths and exaggerations.
One of the biggest propaganda wins the ruling class ever had was to portray having a job as something good that we should be thankful for.
Having an income is good, having a job is merely the cost of having an income. Having a job against your will is literally slavery/forced labour.
i agree with that sentiment, but that isnt any different from the rest of the planet
Says the person who most likely isn’t sharing a bed room with 20 other people, in the same building as the factory. Yes, the world is shit, but don’t kid yourself if you got time to whine on the internet you’re an actual slave.
i literally have to share the rent on my house to be able to afford living, yeah.
i hear thats very much a big thing over there in the US.
capitalists gonna capitalist. nothing surprising here.
Those damn capitalists in charge of checks notes the Chinese Communist Party!
And Google can’t do evil! It’s on their motto!
No politician has ever lied in the history of ever.
The CCP acts like just because the state owns major enterprises then the workers - through the state - own the means of production. That doesn’t hold up when the state does not adequately represent the will of the workers. Never is this contradiction more clear than when the Chinese state suppresses workers’ attempts to organize on their own terms.
China is communist in the same way that the US is democratic, which is to say that it’s a sham to keep up appearances that is suspended when convenient for the few who hold real power.
Those damn democrats in charge of the checks notes the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea!
Wait til someone explains the DPRK to you…
There’s nothing functionally communist about the government of China.
You might be surprised to discover they aren’t all that communist
You have been banned from Lemmy.ml
“Democratic people’s republic of North Korea”
username checks out
Removed by mod
Your post would be just as valid without the last paragraph.
The other point I would add is it is hard to be socialist if you have a stock market and investment banking.
I disagree with many of Trump’s policies, but his idea for tariff’s on Chinese goods is possibly a good one. There’s no way to get this stuff out of the supply chain. I’m terrified some of the things I bought from China are made with slave labor.
How do I get slave labor out of my life?
Up to 14 hours a day? That probably means 80 hours a week. I do 40 and that’s difficult. 80… With no choice… So awful!
I don’t want to be a part of that.
Trump just wants to bring the same to America. The problem for him is not slave labor, it’s that America is not doing enough of it to be able to compete with China.
And how exactly is it better if the same goods are made by American slaves in American factories? Trump is literally on the side of those who want to get rid of regulations, minimum wages and pretty much everything else that protects workers and consumers.
If there is any mention of Adrian Zenz in any but negative light, whatever you are reading is dogshit or you haven’t read enough to see it being a joke. Right wing nutjob puppeteering whatever is the best for the CIA, unironically how can they not get a new guy for the job?
Also the whole point is that Uyghur workers went to work somewhere else in a programming made specifically for that? This is just plain contract work, I don’t see any issue here?
Overall, deeply unserious. Baffling how they can’t find someone new for the job
Americans just like to stroke their ego by demonizing China. Also shows americans ability to consider perspectives outside their own.
Y’know what? I don’t care. Maybe it’s happening, even in the dramatic worst-case way it’s portrayed here, but is that the biggest/only story in China? It feels sort of credibility-stretching that a country of 1.4 billion people and a top-two global economy is entirely cantilevered around the idea of oppressing a tiny minority in the rural corner of the country. I’m fairly certain there are at least nine people in China who can go an entire workday without contemplating how to wipe the Uighyurs off the map. Maybe as many as twelve!
The US is no longer in any sort of moral leadership position to point fingers on human rights, if not for the last few decades, then certainly in its El Salvador phase. The only reason Western media remotely give a damn here is because they’re desperate to slap an asterisk next to the growth and real economic advancement of a country that promises to outpace them imminently.
So many words for “no u” whataboutism is so tired
Clearly too tired to read the whole post. Or are you too tired to deal with the reality of Americas foreign policy?
Removed by mod
Dude, you seem to have literally zero comments in your history with a positive score. Why even bother to keep writing comments? Do you just enjoy trolling?
Removed by mod
New York is the de facto capital city of a literal slave empire who kidnaps people to foreign death camps so I’m thrilled to see what they’re reporting about China
You know it’s possible for multiple evils to exist, right? And sometimes they are also adversaries. Yes, the U.S. is evil. Yes, China is evil. Yes, Russia is evil. So in and so forth.
Classic case of whataboutism, it was a common “technique” very often used by the far-right in the 2015 US presidential elections
This isn’t a counterargument, it’s a thought-terminating cliche
You know it’s possible for multiple evils to exist, right?
What would you say about a newspaper that spread salacious rumors about a foreign country’s nuclear weapons program, months before the newspaper’s domestic government launched a full scale military invasion? What about a newspaper notorious for promoting narratives that have contributed to homophobia, racism, and moral panics aimed at religious minorities? Or a newspaper that had damning information about domestic leadership and deliberately covered it up until the end of an election cycle? A newspaper that regularly promoted the interests of its corporate sponsors ahead of the well-being of its readership? One that promoted misinformation in the middle of a pandemic? Or one that shamelessly promoted financial con-men in the middle of their most brazen acts of fraud?
Is that evil?
Yes, the U.S. is evil. Yes, China is evil.
But we have to side with the US, because it is the lesser of two evils! So trust the NYT, uncritically. Again. In this new drum-beat towards war.
You don’t have to support any evil. You can choose to not support any of them. Why is it a dichotomy to you?
You don’t have to support any evil.
That’s why I cancelled my subscription.
Why is it a dichotomy to you?
Because the article is arguing for further US sanctions on Chinese trade goods. If you’re telling your neighbors, at the point of a US gun, not to buy Chinese products then you’re 100% supporting one of these evil institutions.
This becomes even more dire when you’re talking about blocking Chinese solar panels and wind turbines so that you can defend US coal plants and gas stations.
What? Not buying Chinese products is somehow evil? I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Regardless of what the article is advocating for, it’s making a really crucial point about Uyghur slavery, which is fucking evil, and you’re choosing to ignore it
You are actively choosing to support evil right here and now
It what ways? By literally opposing both the U.S. AND China and recognize both of their complicity in massive human rights violations? Why are you trying to whataboutism this?
thanks Weevil, I wasn’t willing to argue with the rabble and you have proven more eloquent than I would have
“but what about…”
This isn’t a counterargument, it’s a thought-terminating cliche
“It’s suspicious that well known sink-pisser Larry is accusing Bob of pissing in the sink” is not whataboutism.
If Bob is pissing in the sink, who the fuck cares if Larry The Sink Pisser is saying someone else is pissing in the sink too?
“what about all the sink pissing Larry has done?” is literally whataboutism.
Because larry also has a well documented history of making shit up about others, fucking duh
Which has nothing to do with sink-pissing.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/17/asia/uyghurs-muslim-countries-china-intl
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2021/08/08/2003762216
So the story is that the US and our allies, who have spent decades villifying imprisoning and killing muslims, and who have repeatedly verifiably lied about similar human rights abuses to justify our foreign policy before, are the only ones who can be trusted to tell the truth about the conditions for muslims who just happen to be living in the country which is our single greatest global rival politically and economically, about whom we have an extremely obvious foreign policy motive for lying, and everyone else is lying? Every muslim majority nation on earth is apparently only supporting China because they’re either corrupt or too terrified to oppose them, despite the fact that the US has been completely unable to get similar results for Israel with our best efforts? And despite having the most advanced surveillance technology on earth, despite having satellites that can take high resolution pictures of any patch of dirt on earth and an unmatched intelligence network, the US has somehow been unable to obtain any incontrovertible physical evidence of this supposed genocide for years? And you believe that?
People still think the tank man got run over, its going to take a long fucking time to undo all this propaganda.
No, that’s literally whataboutism. It’s saying the merit of their accusation is based on their history of doing that thing rather than evidence of who they’re accusing of doing it. Fairly typical ad hominem attack.
No, it’s not “whataboutism” because the source of the accusations is extremely relevant. The US and our allies lied about Iraq and Afghanistan to justify our invasions, and got all of the same western media outlets that are cosigning our accusations towards China did the same with those confirmed lies. We have a verifiable history of lying about other counteies to justify our foreign policy, and we have extremely obvious motive to lie about China right now. Pretending that’s not the case doesn’t help your credibility.
Right! You can cast doubt on their honesty by pointing out that they have lied before. That’s called evidence.
However, saying they do the same thing as the other guy is not evidence of them lying. That’s whataboutism and ad hominem.
“I like to find any reason to not listen or understand anyone who doesnt agree with me!”
I’m known to do something actively, constantly, and on purpose. When I accuse another person of doing that thing, its a very good reason to cast doubt on my claims and motives. That is a perfectly valid argument.
No it isn’t you fucking moron
Speaking of ad hominem…
It is? I’d like to read about that
What the fuck are you smoking?
I’d be willing to smoke it too, might take the edge off all current events.
Zero evidence of forced labor or forced relocation, just people they claim are Uighurs working outside the Xinjiang region, the rest is just unverifiable stories as usual
If China were less opaque and oppressive about how they went about things. Perhaps there would be reason to believe them. I know specific people who have been ditectly impacted by this. Your indoctrination doesn’t change that fact. It’s bad when anyone does it. Not just china. But it’s still bad when China does it.
It’s a CCP bot account. Just report it and block it.
Everything you disagree with is a bot and/or foreign agent, everyone who says you’re wrong has an ulterior motive, everyone is evil or stupid except the US. Stay stupid patriot!
Xinjiang is literally completely open to foreign tourism, you could go there right now and see for yourself if you cared to
Xinjiang is literally completely open to foreign tourism
No it’s not, large parts of xinjiang require permits to visit, or are still completely blocked to outsiders.
Also, there is plenty of evidence to verify that systemic abuse of minority rights has and still is occurring in China. You deny any of it is valid.
Anything’s possible when you make shit up
This is not a counter-argument, it’s a thought terminating cliche.
Where’s your evidence then?
Again I know people directly impacted by this. And don’t appreciate your non sequiturs. Yes I’m sure anyone could go there and see what the government wants them to see. However it is undisputed, and well-known. That China opresses anyone they disagree with. Much like the Us government is doing. They both regularly disappear, jail, and harass advocates for democracy, or those who go against the unanswerable leadership.
Anything’s possible when you make shit up
And that’s exactly why No One Believes you. Or respects you. There are Chinese people calling this out plenty. It’s not some Western psyop. Or anything remotely like privileged, Western, campists, vanguard cosplayers pretend it is.
I’d have a tiny modicum of respect for leninists if they could ever admit fault. But instead, every time, somehow it’s always the west that shit their pants while they were wearing them. What a joke.
“No one believes you” except for every muslim nation on earth lol. Go ahead, tell me about how they’re all corrupt/compromised and only the noble westerners really care about the plight of the Uighur, I could use a good laugh.
Why would Islamic countries not condemn China? They certainly seem to condemn the genocide of the Palestinian people. Somebody please enlighten me.
Edit: According to Business Insider, they might fear China’s retaliation (e.g. economic vengeance). How reliant are these Islamic countries on exports from China and how reliant are these countries on China importing their resources (e.g. oil)?
Why would any of that matter when people of their religion are being genocided? Fear of retaliation from a nuclear-powered state and facing consequences in regards to western trade doesn’t seem to deter them from taking a stance on Palestine.
There is plenty of evidence widely available from organizations like human rights watch and amnesty international. Claims that deny any evidence exist of the persecution of China’s Muslim population rely on logical fallacies to attempt to obscure the validity of the body of evidence. Namely ad hominem attacks against the individual who first gathered the evidence to begin with.
While the researcher obviously has biased opinions about the CCP, that doesn’t affect the validity of the evidence gathered, most of which comes directly from publicly available information released by the CCP itself, or from leaked internal communication from party members that have been widely verified by reputable journalists and organizations specializing in human rights violations.
While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.
Simply looking at publicly available census data releases by the CCP we can tell that Uyghur people are being driven from culturally important sites that are being replaced by ethnically Han Chinese, and that Uyghur populations have been shrinking at a worryingly abnormal rate.
If we look at recent history of ethnic conflict within China in tibet, Manchuria, and inner Mongolia, I fail to see why it’s logical to assume that the accusations of crimes against humanity is pure propaganda.
Han chauvinism is well documented, and even Mao Zedong spoke about how it would negatively affect the future of the party. Ethnic conflict/cleansing has been a constant in the region and is part of the foundational history of modern China.
There is not “plenty of evidence”, there are plenty of wild claims and unverifiable stories, about a country& region that is currently completely open to foreign tourism no less. You admit you don’t believe there’s a genocide occuring, yet still choose to believe the people/organizations making these claims despite the fact that all of them claim that a genocide is occuring. Han chauvinism existing does absolutely nothing to prove the specific accusations being presented. When a government chooses to target a minority population it invariably results in physical evidence, see Palestine for examples. The complete absence of any comparable evidence for this, coupled with the obvious motive for the US and their allies to disparage their greatest global competitor, and the documented history of false accusations used to justify our foreign policy, should be more than enough reason for any reasonable person to disregard these stories until such evidence is presented.
There is not “plenty of evidence”, there are plenty of wild claims and unverifiable stories,
“Xinjiang is a vast region with an area of 1.66 million km2. Until the 1950s, Uyghurs were the majority ethnic group in the region, accounting for more than 90 percent of the total population.”
“Between the 1940s and the 1980s, attempts to incorporate the region into the modern Chinese national state brought about a 2,500 per cent increase in the Han population. Today, Han and Uyghurs each account for approximately 40 per cent of Xinjiang’s total population of roughly 25.5 million. Clearly, the basic trajectory over the past decades has been one of moving Han rapidly into the region. This is coupled in more recent years with a significant shrinking of the Uyghur population.”
“The Han population in the region increased at an average rate of 8.1 per cent yearly, from 5 per cent in 1947 to around 40 per cent in 2000. Officially, Uyghurs comprise about 45 percent of Xinjiang’s permanent population with Han representing approximately 42 percent, and Kazakh, Hui and other ethnicities making up the rest. However, these figures belie the very high number of long-term resident and temporary Han migrant workers as well as thousands of security personnel in Xinjiang. They also obscure data from the 2020 Chinese Statistical Yearbook, showing that between 2017 and 2019 the birth rate in Xinjiang dropped approximately 48.7 per cent, from 15.88 per thousand in 2017 to 8.14 per thousand in 2019. The average for all of China was 10.48 per thousand.”
“The capital of the province itself went from being a city in which there were hardly any Han Chinese before 1949 to one in which the Uyghurs have been almost completely displaced. In addition, across Xinjiang, urban redesign projects have demolished hundreds of thousands of homes and resettled millions of Uyghur residents on the pretext of ‘civilization’ (文明) and ‘beautification’ (美化).”
“Since the mid-1990s, the gradual exclusion of Uyghurs from state-based employment – and the rising number of private jobs – is statistically verifiable from a variety of sources. While Han Chinese were able to secure employment, Uyghurs were kept out of construction jobs, road-building projects and oil and gas pipelines. Uyghurs with graduate degrees were only employed at an estimated 15 per cent, and, according to a 2013 study, Uyghurs earned an average of 59 per cent of what their Han counterparts earned.”
Source from Minority Rights Group
about a country& region that is currently completely open to foreign tourism no less.
"While Xinjiang is generally open to international tourism, there are specific travel restrictions and measures in place, particularly for certain groups and areas. Generally, foreigners do not need a special permit to enter Xinjiang, but they do need a valid Chinese visa. However, there are restrictions on travel in specific areas, and increased security measures are common, especially in major cities. "
You admit you don’t believe there’s a genocide occuring, yet still choose to believe the people/organizations making these claims despite the fact that all of them claim that a genocide is occuring.
You can still massively suppress a minority group without committing what is commonly thought to be a genocide.
Just because I don’t completely agree with the conclusions made from a body of evidence doesn’t mean the evidence is invalid.
Han chauvinism existing does absolutely nothing to prove the specific accusations being presented. When a government chooses to target a minority population it invariably results in physical evidence, see Palestine for examples.
What accusations of mine are you denying?
As I said there is plenty of evidence to confirm that a minority group is being put into concentration camps for "reeducation " and that they are being forced to move away from their traditional homeland. This isn’t even being denied by the Chinese government, they just validate it as a way to control what they lable as terrorism.
The evidence I provided is sourced by an organization that also documents the crimes currently occuring in Gaza.
should be more than enough reason for any reasonable person to disregard these stories until such evidence is presented.
As I said, there’s plenty of evidence that’s been cross referenced and verified by dozens of advocacy groups who often stand against America’s foreign policy. Most of the evidence comes from internal documents created by the Chinese government itself.
I don’t have any specific prejudice against the Chinese government, it like any government does things that I agree with and disagree with. You on the other hand don’t seem to be able to get over your own biases.
After they hide their homeless people so outsiders will think they’re the perfect country
Lol seen this one already, linked video provides zero actual evidence as usual
Again dismissing evidence with empty soap of words, nice gaslighting .ml tankie
Removed by mod
You keep shooting blanks with your empty words, whats this reply supposed to be? Troll? It just show how you are not trying to discuss in good faith and just being a yes sir so I guess your phrase of “try harder patriot” seems equivalent to be you thinking outloud to yourself
lol 🤡
Removed by mod
Conveniently forgetting about the Xinjiang Papers, huh? Found an ableist
A combination of deliberately inaccurate translations and outright lies, fucking duh. The vast majority of americans are barely literate in english and completely incapable of fact-checking this nonsense. When a government targets a minority population it invariably leaves far better evidence than paperwork nobody can verify the source of, like videos and actual physical evidence, see Palestine for examples.
Asks for evidence, gets evidence, send a soap of words as a way to sway argument against then point to other countries again, well done on gaslighting, .ml tankie
Asks for evidence, gets evidence, send a soap of words as a way to sway argument against then point to other countries again, well done on gaslighting, .ml tankie
There’s evidence and then there’s western imperial “evidence”
Whataboutism again? You can do better, at least I had thought you could at the beginning of the thread but it’s clear as day you’re just trolling
Because friend I knew it was pointless the minute I saw you drop “tankie” unironically. The fake left is just as present here as fake-left-reddit i reckon
The wiki article linked in the comment uses the exact same “evidence” as the OP article, which is to say absolutely none, and if you bothered putting even a little effort into questioning US propaganda you’d know that. No WMDs in Iraq, no genocide in China, same old braindead patriots mad at anyone who points it out.
Loves dismissing evidences after getting evidence you said to be nonexistent to gaslight with nothing but empty soap of words, nice try on gaslighting .ml tankie
No WMDs in Iraq, no genocide in China. Try harder patriot!
You keep shooting blanks with your empty words, whats this reply supposed to be? Troll? It just show how you are not trying to discuss in good faith and just being a yes sir so I guess your phrase of “try harder patriot” seems equivalent to be you thinking outloud to yourself
I thought world being a psyop was just an inside joke but i suppose its true just openly posting western propaganda like this UGH
Its not so much a psyop as a majority of americans actually believe this shit. World is a huge circle jerk so thats why it happens.
It’s no better than fucking reddit, shameful
It’s super suspect that western media suddenly cares about the rights of muslims in China, especially after they’ve spent there lay 20 years vilifying muslims in every other country in the world.
It’s also not outside of the realm of possibility that China is dealing with religious extremism internally and sent interested in getting non Chinese opinions about the best way to do it.
The New York Times has been covering Uyghur issues since 2001.
Anything’s possible when you make shit up
Meanwhile, in the real world
Nothing in the source article even comes close to the current genocide narrative, although I am surprised we were pretending to give a shit about uighurs that long ago. Seems like the state department figured out that this wouldn’t be enough to make anyone pay attention, and their subsequent success with making shit up about Iraq and Afghanistan was so successful they just did the same thing again, and braindead patriots like you ate it up.
They mass imprisonment and cultural destruction is a more recent phenomenon. China first spent several decades bringing in colonists and executing those who complained too loudly.
It’s a more recent lie, because the milder previous lies weren’t having the desired effect
