That was disturbing news to Angelica Jadunandan, who moved to New York from Florida with her two young daughters three years ago. Her older daughter, who is eight, is transgender, and Angelica wanted to move them to a safe blue state—somewhere her family’s medical care would not be called into question. New York is a self-declared “sanctuary state” for trans people. It seemed like a good option.
Once again, conservatives/Republicans ruin everything
When people refuse to learn about an unfamiliar group, the primary cause is identity protection bias, where the brain views new information as a threat to its existing worldview and social standing. This is an emotional defense mechanism that triggers willful ignorance to avoid psychological discomfort. By reframing the unfamiliar group as individual humans rather than abstract concepts, you lower their neurological threat response and allow curiosity to naturally replace hostility.
We all can do better when we all learn more, the truth will set us free, like Sagan said!
I was going to smugly reply “not in Massachusetts”, but “….EVEN IN MASSACHUSETTS?”
Not in California…I hope.
federal boots are heavy enough to asfixiate even a hospital. thats gotta change
How are YOU deciding that an 8 yo isn’t? Are you seriously telling us that a random loser with the alias tigermountain is in a better position than the doctors and family of this kid to tell us what’s good for them?
The fact that some people like you, with a high school diploma, thinks they’re in position to give relevant opinion on deeply complex subjects is way bigger problem than anything.
So many people in this thread should literally be banned from ever being parents or being around kids. Geez.
If you’re EIGHT years old you are not transgender - you just have really, really messed up parents.
How the he’ll would you know that?
Now do it in Englsh
How have I not blocked you already?
Oh, 1 day old account.
The day is young. You can still do it if you apply yourself sweetie.
you folk are abhorrent shit stains on society
It’s not often I get to meet a professional numskull, where did you get your training?
wow…sensitive against logic much sweetie?
It looks like you confused logic and opinion. Have you tried not doing that?
Have you considered learning English?
Is the logic in the room with us? Because it’s certainly not between your ears.
Took a look at your profile. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM
Remember all these parties no one ever invited you to? This is why.
Bitch, I host the best parties.
Cope harder troll.
Sweetie, lining up your collection of rainbow colored my little ponies on your twin bed is not hosting a party.
Nope! Full of people and games and everything!
Like I said, lolololol
You’ve got three options for hospitals: Religious, corporate, university.
The first one is highly unlikely to offer such services. The second won’t want to “get political” and affect their share price,and they’re working hard to buy up everyone else. University hospitals are few and only in big cities.
University hospitals probably want funding from the State
Yes, I forgot about that! Thank you!
And our university hospital folded and isn’t answering questions about what deal they made with the feds.
University hospitals are the best that exist. First rate researchers teaching the new generation of physicians.
Most are. There are a few (no names) with not great efficiencies.
Or at worst not great MD/teachers that don’t step in when a resident or med student is fucking up.
And some universities hospitals are religious which defeats the point.
They absolutely are. There’s just not that many of them.
Complete opposite where I’m at. University hospital is where you go if you want to die or be treated like a lab rat
Caleb Hammer wondered why Colorado state pays for trans people’s breast size surgeries, while normal people have to pay from their own pocket.
Great mysteries of the world. /s
“Hey Abbii, as a leftist, why do you hate liberals?”
Because they are not leftists and they enable fascism.
What does that mean?
Check their user name.
trans youth care
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Because they tell us, and we listen.
As studies show children begin to understand gender by ages 3 and are generally fully formed by 7. With ‘Affected transgender individuals are usually aware of its existence by the age of 5 years.’.
From here children are hopefully able to begin treatment, through social transitioning. Where studies show that starting transitioning at a median age of 8.1, 97.5% remained transgender either in a binary or non-binary identities.
Shocking to nobody, we understand ourselves and know we are trans from very young ages.
Not only does this align with my own lived experiences as a trans woman, but it matches what I have seen in my 10+ years of working in Early Childhood Education and seeing other trans children begin to identify themselves and maintain said identity up into their teens.
Oh and I’m downvoting you because your post doesn’t deserve attention, and is clearly being asked from an antagonistic and transphobic angle.
The years I have spent crying over this… I don’t want to know what the removed comment said, but I want to reiterate how broken and sad a life unlived can be. In so many ways I’m so jealous of young trans women getting to pursue the life I never got to, but I’m also glad they get to live it at all.
Wait are you recently out? Congrats, I think, LOL (I’m one of like three trans guys on here, 14 years on T next month, I imagine coming out now is not a great time even if there’s not the same level of medical gatekeeping as when I started transition).
It seems like the only regret the vast majority of trans people have, at least those of us of a certain age, is the regret over not being able to transition sooner. It doesn’t do any good to dwell on that regret, that game isn’t productive, but I’m pretty sure we’ve all wondered how much better our lives would have been if we could have had fewer empty miserable years.
Not her, but I transitioned in early adulthood and while I’ve met many who deeply wish they could have at the age I did, I still regret not having the knowledge/courage to transition sooner
And congrats on nearing 14 years dude! I hit 11 in the spring. Things were very different when you (and to a certain degree I) transitioned, to the point where I’ve confused people who transitioned more recently by mentioning the hoops I had to jump through
You’ve posted some good information about this. I’m also wondering at what age children were exposed to information about gender norms that deviate from cis-, like through, public education, YouTube or other social media platforms. I’m not sure if it’s taught in public education curriculums to young children, but my intuition says no.
My intuition also tells me that the decision to transition wasn’t influenced by outside factors, but purely through internal motivation. If anything, I would think a lot of individuals struggle with their gender dysphoria, as they realize there can be very real social consequences to coming out.
The fact that such a high rate of individuals are satisfied after their outsides match their insides is pretty much the nail in the coffin for those who oppose transition for youth. As well as anyone who thinks someone can be programmed via education or YouTube to become trans, non-binary, etc.
Also, individuals who differentiate from socially-reinforced gender norms only account for 1-3% of the total US population, so it’s very silly it’s treated by reactionaries as some threat that is going to consume the entire population of kids.
In my case I was a child in the 90s. I wasn’t really exposed to the information until MySpace. I still knew I was different as a young kid, but I didn’t have the information and words to describe it or environment to explore it in.
Today I teach it to my 3 year old class, and I know in at least one nearby primary school they have non-binary toilets and have some education on gender. But I’m also in Australia.
A child will also tell you there’s a dragon living in the attic or that Santa is real.
you quite obviously have no kids, and in the unfortunate circumstance that you have managed to procreate, I pity those children and hope they find better in life once they’re free of you.
By listening to the child…
It’s…a child…
If a toddler hands you a phone, do you not answer it?
If they asked to be called a pirate do you say no?
Why is name/pronouns different? They can’t control those?
If a child tells you there is a dragon on your roof do you believe that as well…?
Meh, I don’t believe they fully understand at that age. My daughter thought she was a boy when she was around 10, she is now 18 and turned out she was just gay. Had we gone the route of medical change it would have been the wrong choice for her.
What medical change? Because your options were a lot leas than you think.
The only one available to a 10 year old is puberty blockers. Those are 100% reversible, and are commonly used outside of trams health care. Theyre used to delay the onset of development. The process restart the moment you stop taking them. No long teem effects have been found the several times I’ve done literature review. If you have one please send me a peer review paper.
This also is not done on a whim. This would be done in coordination with a psycayrist that also would explore those feelings with them. If not a Dr then a therapist for aure. I would want someone trained to explore gender vs sexuality with before asking for puberty blockers.
And on a different note. Let’s say you did let your daughter experiment with gender.
Go buy different name and pronouns, feel those don’t fit, and go back? Like what’s the long term damage. All I see is someone that comes out more confident that they’re a woman after that?
I fail to see any long term damage that would have happened, even if you did medical intervention.
This is how MAGA people think it works:
Five-year-old boy: I like pink dresses
Teacher: we must cut off your penis this instant
so does dim-bulb up above there, lol
I don’t think the long term effects of puberty blocking are fully understood and in my opinion not worth the risk.
But I’m also adverse to medication in general so I’m biased on that.
I didn’t stop her from exploring either as much as other want to believe it. She did do therapy at one point and we fully supported her in all she did. I just stand firm on any life altering decisions until they are older. That’s like letting your child get a tattoo or drive a car or smoke or anything you would not let them do.
Also I appreciate the civil response.
“I allowed my daughter to explore her gender and supported her with therapy and she maintained her gender identity so I don’t think any other children or parents should be able to do what we did.”
Sounds cruel to me.
I don’t think the long term effects of puberty blocking are fully understood and in my opinion not worth the risk.
Based on what? Thats the problem here. You have this opniom, based on 0 supplied facts. This isnt new medicine. This is decades and decades of medical knowledge here.
Were walking 45 years here.
Edit:
Was your daughter offered/suggested blockers?
Because it sounds like you did the right thing, listened to medical advice, and got the correct advice. So now other people shouldnt have it?
Blair white, the fucking republican poster child for “one of the good ones,” said she knew when she was 5. This is not a controversial point and the fact that you can’t be bothered to look into it further than your own intuition is not our fault. Jumping into a debate without at least glancing at the data is moronic, and saying “nah” when actually presented the data is incomprehensibly stupid.
Everyone else covered the “medical change” stuff so I’ll let that go.
No one advocates for medical changes beyond (reversible) puberty blockers at that age - specifically to give young people time to figure these things out. Also counseling is often involved, so in your daughter’s case it’s likely a professional would have worked with her and helped her determine this about her.
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Who said they are?
Puberty blockers
A) are prescribed all the time to children youger who start puberty ‘too early’
B) are reversed the moment you stop taking them.
Also, it’s not a binary choice, or permenant. If a child wants to by jenifer instead of Steven for week, just do it? You’d do the same if they wanted to be called pirate king for a week.
Also,
No one is doing medical intervention without it being persistent. No one is prescribing these on a whim.
Actual question, not getting at anything here: how do puberty blocker effects reverse? Does it essentially make you a late bloomer if you stop taking them, or is some growth missed out on/skipped because you take them?
I’m seeing some people say that it pauses things and doesn’t cause any issues if someone goes off them, but I’m seeing other comments that it can negatively impact bone density. How does it not stunt puberty at all if it’s paused for a certain period of time?
And not to be rude, please do your own research here.
I’m not saying this to be mean, I’m. saying it because I’m a random asshat on the internet. Find trusted sources, and find people who know more than me, an anon asshat.
Also, Its not always… Good… To ask the repressed minioroty for education. Its fully well intentioned. But your deferring to my opniom as if I’m a medical expert. When I’m at most an expert in my own health care.
My opinions om care are informed by opinions like paediatricians and other medical professional associations, all of whom say this care is safe.
I linked in another comment these were first used in the early 80s, 45 years ago. There’s TONs of info.
Now, like I said, not a medical expert. But I do have an acemic experience (degree in physics). I’ll say a good start is google scholor. Or looking for information on trusted places, like the medical associations.
Thats not to say there aren’t side effects, there’s always risk with medical decisions. On both sides.
There are many trans kids who kill them selves because transitioning isnt an option available to them. So saying ‘no’ to it, also has real risks.
Edit: I provided a link in another reply
please do your own research here.
I did, and then I asked a question on this forum after reading over conflicting answers from what I thought were decent sources and other forums.
This is a politics forum for conversation. It’s silly not to ask questions on a forum that any user on the thread can answer. That’s one of the prime benefits of the Internet - asking questions and conversing with people around the world while learning things.
Either way, thanks for providing the link.
Delayed edit: here’s the last article I pulled up that talked about potential bone density and neuro issues that were not yet studied enough.
https://politifact.com/article/2023/aug/28/puberty-blockers-the-facts-and-the-myths/
My full opnion on what I’m am expert in is already posted in this thread. My own health care and experience.
You asked for a viewpoint on one I can not provide. As I’m not a medical care expert. I defer to those I’ve already mentioned.
And that doesn’t really address the second part. Your asking a trans woman to be an expert in something the vast majority of us are not. Your asking a minority to be an expert and a representivie of the community as a whole. Rather than the individual they are. My background is physics. I can answer quantum questions no problem. I can even talk stattics in a lot of different contexts. But medical care is not one.
Its a common, but overhwleming, ask to be that expert, representative, or (calling it what it is) token.
Thats why I’m rejecting the question. Not because it was asked in bad faith. But That it has no business being asked of a random asshat on the internet. And at no point should you trust the answer anyways.
Except we do make this choice as children.
The ones who won’t leave the children alone are the freaks who try to enforce cisnormative gender expression onto children.
Please just leave the kids alone and let them continue to exist as the trans kids they are.
Have you ever met an 8 year-old? They barely know what they want to eat for lunch most days. They have neither the life experience or knowledge to have to make a decision.
Society forces gender norms, and thus binary status, on children when we should just let them be kids. Why is this controversial?
Choosing to present as their assigned gender at birth is also a decision. It is not a neutral choice. Not all but many trans kids know they are trans, know that presenting in ways they would prefer is not safe or accepted, and suffer in silence.
Those are the kids we are trying to protect when we want to preserve trans Healthcare for children.
Look, I’m a trans woman, and I ‘knew’ at that age. Did i know what it was? No!
But I clearly wasnt acting like a boy either. They know.
I agree that the constructs are stupid. Thats not the conterveraal thing you said though.
At that age you know what is appropriate gender affirming care? Calling them whatever random bullshit name they want to be called, and however they want to be referred to. For most children, it could just be a phase. But there’s no harm in indulging age appropriate care.
You absolutely wouldn’t be saying any of this if your 8 year old kept walking into the wrong bathroom. Nobody would say oh, that’s normal because kids just can’t be expected to know which bathroom they go in at that age, or whether they call their mom ‘she’ or ‘he’. You fully expect an eight year old to have a firm grasp on the basics of gender, but not to be able to think about how they feel about how any of it applies to them?
They may not have what you consider deep thoughts, but trying to deny them their own sense of self because it makes you uncomfortable is going to fuck your kid up. Ask me how I know. Maybe they hop around in identities; so fucking what? 8 is the perfect time to be doing that, well before worrying about the irreversible effects of puberty and having to make decisions about blockers.
Further down in this post I have linked to studies showing 97.5% of all 8 year olds remain trans and know by the age of 5.
We understand ourselves as children far better than you give us credit for.
Just leave us alone. Our only problem is not being taught the words to describe ourselves and that we can transition.
Sounds like you haven’t raised your kid to be particularly articulate or willing to share their feelings with you.
My comment was removed by a mod for Rule 4. Bullshit. I said nothing trolling or low-effort. I asked why we’re even bothering kids and making them forced to choose.
This is a fucking political community. Asking questions in good faith should not be censored because of mod opinions.
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If a cis child is able to begin puberty without people calling into question whether the child is mature enough to make such a life altering decision, there’s no reason a trans child should be unable to begin puberty blockers or HRT at the age they’d typically begin puberty regardless.
Choosing not to allow trans children to take necessary medical steps to transition is not a neutral choice. The wrong puberty can irreversibly damage your body in ways that are impossible or very expensive to fix, and the torture of seeing that happen to yourself and be unable to prevent it can’t be overstated.
No 8 year old is starting HRT, because they aren’t at the age to begin puberty. If a child is insistent in their gender idenity being incongruous with the puberty they will undergo long term, there is no reason to prevent them accessing HRT at the correct age, and if there is any doubt, the neutral option to pause unwanted changes in the interim is puberty blockers.
Gender confirmation surgeries are very uncommon for minors, and typically only happen to those who have already undergone the wrong puberty and have developed unwanted secondary sex characteristics (typically just top surgery for trans mascs). Breast reduction surgery for cis boys is the vast majority of gender confirmation surgery on minors, and among trans minors specifically the rate of gender affirming surgery is around 0.0021% for those 15-17, 0.0001% for those 13-14, and 0 for 12 and under. And the best way to reduce this number is by letting trans teens access puberty blockers and HRT.
Edit: Also there have 1000% been trans minors who started HRT as a minor and are now trans adults who are still on HRT. The rate of desisting for minors who identify as trans is like ~2%, and most of those who do do so by age 10 (eg before any HRT or gender affirming care outside of social transition). [source]
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Thanks for the thoughtful response.
But look at how I’m being treated here, look at how they removed my original comment. I wasn’t being mean or anything.
If people expect to have discussion and convert people then they need to be nicer. What I saw today is evil, and it doesn’t help the trans community much when this happens.
I’m not going to let it poison my research, but holy moly you folks need some manners and decency.
I would not call people being (rightfully) annoyed at you evil. What I would call evil is posting, on an article about the rights of trans kids being stripped away, how you’re “just asking questions” about why trans kids shouldn’t have the right to the correct puberty the same as their cis peers, while ignoring the sources people offer to you and using as your source a single article by a right-wing, anti-abortion christian site, out of some fear that kids are being pushed into transitioning. A fear that is being created by the people behind the rollback of trans rights, using the age old technique of accusing queer people of “grooming kids” (whether that’s turning them gay, trans, or anything else). One that you are being told is wrong from both actual medical studies as well as personal experience (I almost guarantee every trans person can tell you a story of medical gatekeeping they or someone they know experienced). Even as adults getting on HRT is not always an easy task, and as a minor it can be almost impossible.
Sorry that you feel trans people are being rude to you, but you have no idea how often we hear this exact same argument from cis people who think they somehow know better than medical experts and actual trans people about whether kids are too stupid to know that they’re trans but somehow not too stupid to know that they’re cis.
And, respectfully, you yourself did not approach this topic with the respect it deserves. Your initial now removed comment insinuated an 8 year old child not yet seeking medical intervention was the age for “stuff like this” (eg medically transitioning), said how you were “leaning towards being against” trans care for minors, and reused a common TERF and transphobe talking point about how “its possible you could have been pushed into transitioning as a child” were it more well known and accepted, with no evidence other than a vague feeling. Your comment being removed is entirely fair and not evidence of mistreatment.
That’s not really what I said but I appreciate your input, thank you.
If thats how several trans people in this thread took your argument it might be a good opportunity to self-reflect.
Is there any way to get a copy of my original Lemmy post so I can see it? I want to look at my tone and such.
Yeah I found a copy of it, here are the relevant parts I was thinking of in this response:
I don’t understand it right now, and I would even say I disagree.
“Leaning towards being against”
Does this stuff harm or hurt folks in the long run? Only time will tell.
“Just asking questions”
I wanted to be the same gender as the only parent that was there for me, and I think a lot of what we’re seeing here is similar to that.
“pushed into transitioning”
It’s quite curious that we’re trying to allow folks that can’t drive, drink, vote, join the military, or do any other number of adult activities alter their body like this
Both “insinuating medical transition happens at 8 years old” and “trans kids are too stupid to know they’re trans and undergo HRT driven puberty, but cis kids can undergo natal puberty perfectly fine”. A 2 for 1 special, how fun.
Edit:
Maybe it would be worth it to talk to someone that’s grown up, someone that went through this themselves. Someone that received the gender affirming care while they were young… although that might be hard to find for this very reason. … I just don’t think the experience I’m looking for has even happened in a person yet (due to the mentioned legal issues)
Also this is stupid for a multitude of reasons and shows you didn’t do even a tiny bit of research beforehand
Yeah, probably!
But look at how I’m being treated here, look at how they removed my original comment. I wasn’t being mean or anything.
Trans people are getting our rights stripped away at an alarming rate, and you’re whining about people being pissed at you on an internet forum? Maybe log off and get some perspective
Ok, thanks!
Trans woman going to reply.
But look at how I’m being treated here, look at how they removed my original comment. I wasn’t being mean or anything.
Imagine how it feels to be yelled at while in line to pee at a washroom.
If people expect to have discussion and convert people then they need to be nicer.
Four hings here.
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You are not owed politeness. (See 2). I dont know what you said that got removed, so I’m only judging on this comment. But talking to people who are criminalized for trying to pee in certain states, were done trying to be polite.
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No one is converting anyone. Were here demanding basic rights and protections that are given to everyone else. You don’t like trans people, fine, we dont want to hang with people like that either.
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No one in history has gotten said rights politely. Politics dont care about the oppressed until they’re forced to be heard.
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If your allyship is so flimsy that someone being rude makes you question it, you were never an ally in the first place
What I saw today is evil, and it doesn’t help the trans community much when this happens.
From me to you, I face that every day as a trans woman. If you dont like it, get fucked I guess? Thats what I keep getting told…
I get mad when I’m told I should be more polite in the face of a Genocide upcoming
Well, there are people ready to listen. I see you, but not everyone is mean. I hope it gets better for you.
I can’t even access my original comment but it wasn’t mean or judgmental. The problem with society right now is that we can’t have polite discourse.
Thanks for your perspective!
Fuck your poliete discourse. Disrespectfully.
Were in the face of a genocide agaosnt my trans siblings south of the border here.
Were past civilaized discussions.
Trans women are being raped in men’s prisons.
Why should I be polite to people who dont want to understand my oppression?
When it’s time that me, a Canadian trans woman, feels the need to own a gun for protection. Why should I be polite to anyone?
Thank you for your perspective. Please stop being mean, it doesn’t help.
I understand where you’re coming from.
You are not owed politeness.
Because an example I’m looking at, is a German telling a Jew to be more polite in 1939.
Politeness has never gotten anything, so no, I won’t stop.
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Are you Trans? If not, then you cannot understand. Leave people to make their own medical decisions as long as they don’t hurt society at large. So, don’t come back at me about vaccination.
Even then, the same logic applies to vaccines. I don’t care if someone else doesn’t want to get their tetanus shot up to date. I don’t care if they don’t want to get a rabies shot.
All gender affirming care that is or has been provided to minors at scale is reversible. The standard for providing gender affirming care to minors is puberty blockers and social transition, never anything permanent like surgery. Personally, I don’t see any cause for concern about potential harm to minors from providing gender affirming care, but I do see the harm that is done to them when that care is denied and find it far more concerning given that a common result of that harm is the most permanent and irreversible outcome possible, suicide.
Question, I know of a kid in my kids friend circle. She has been on puberty blockers and is starting to take estrogen. She is 16. I would have thought that starting to take estrogen wouldn’t be truely reversible. But I really don’t know much about it. Can a person theoretically stop the estrogen and the puberty blockers and go through a sort of normal male puberty?
The estrogen isn’t reversible but testosterone would still work. In short, if she were to detransition she would have a feminine bone structure, breasts, and would likely be a bit smaller, but should otherwise develop fine.
The bigger thing is that at 16 you’re really balancing risks here. Detransition of a 16 year old who’d been on puberty blockers is very rare. Hitting 18 without any puberty is socially isolating and developmentally awkward. And going through the wrong puberty has permanent effects too as well as feeling like some sort of body horror. A choice has to be made and the person who is nearly an adult and has to experience the consequences is the one most likely to get it right, especially when they’ve thoroughly discussed it with doctors and therapists.
You mention hitting 18 without any puberty. What does that actually look like. I assume a person of any gender would just be shorter in general, but I don’t even know if that is true. For female, there would be no breasts, but I assume one could wear something that would make it look like there were. That doesn’t cover person to person contact, but it at least covers some phsyical appearance. Of course word would get around at school, but at 18 that would likely end. But there must be more. I am just not sure what puberty blockers would prevent that would be socially obvious, and I am curious.
She’d have a childlike fat distribution. Her bones may fuse in an androgynous way. She’d not develop sexual desires. Her muscle structure would remain childlike. She’d be slower to adult bone density.
Hell, all the mental and emotional changes that come with puberty at 16 she’ll be pretty late to all of that, but having to wait to 18 is taking two more years from it. Those are two years hanging out with peers and rebelling against parents. Of teenage angst. Of early dating at an age where it’s understood to probably go nowhere so you can make mistakes. It’s also two years of her body still feeling wrong, of clothes not fitting right, of not seeing the face she’s already jumped through so many hoops in pursuit of. It’s the entire lived experience of being 16 and not allowed to go through puberty for two more years unless you take the one you really don’t want.
For someone who’s uncertain it may very well be a better decision than picking a puberty. But for someone who is certain and whose doctors believe seriously understands the choices being made it should be her choice
That’s good to know, thank you. It makes the angle pretty different.
An integral part of transgender care is also therapeutic evaluation and discussion with minors and parents to thoroughly understand what is needed at specific stages of the minor’s development.
The issue of parents/schools “promoting” kids to be a different gender is so insanely overblown. There isn’t any documented case of an adult coming forward to claim that they received gender altering medical intervention as a minor when they shouldn’t have.
Just wait. It’ll be the cool thing for youth pastors to claim soon. Like all the ones that claim they were strung out giving handies in truck stop bathrooms when Jesus called them.
“I’ve been there. I was told it would be great to be trans. They offered me money and candy. Then dressed me in girls clothes and did surgery on me in math class. Then Jesus came to me and said ‘No more’”.
Before 5 years later they complete the cycle by coming back out and not getting why the community can’t trust them or welcome them back
I believe you, I don’t think there is malice here at all.
You might find a lecture bio a professor from Stanford, named Robert Sapolsky, entitled ‘Neuro-biologu of trans-sexuality’ interesting.
I had been a little while since I watched it, but the thing that stands out in my memory is:
When you look at the differences between biologically male brains, and biologically female brains, there is this part that has nodes (I don’t remember exactly, sorry, nouns are not my forte) and they are always one size in male brains, and a different size in female brains.
In trans-sexual brains, these little nodes are the size of the nodes in the brain of their believed gender, not their biological gender.
People with similar experiences as a child certainly exist, and their and your experiences are valid, but there are many documented and studied experience that are different. Something like your experience, I would hope would be identified by the parents.
Thanks for the response. People are being pretty evil to me here. I appreciate your thoughtful, detailed response a lot.
You should probably edit your comment to include this information since somebody might see the misinformation in your original comment and might not see this comment correcting it
I’ll add a clarifier at the end but I didn’t specifically reference procedures, so I’ll probably leave the “like this” part unless that’s considered deceptive in some way?
As a fascist, what on earth made you decide to join Lemmy? Get the fuck out of here!
You have no idea what I am. When you’re talking to people with different opinions though, this isn’t the way my friend. This is not the way.
Didn’t think I’d ever see this shit here
Fuck off entirely with this
Oh get stuffed with this concern trolling. The regret rate for children who transition is almost non-existent.
Man, I really thought this place would have more thoughtful discussion than Reddit. There’s nuance to everything and we’re all trying to understand each others human experience. It looks like mine is vastly different from yours, but that’s alright.
Edit: Oh I see this is your main topic you post about, it probably affects you deeply. Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way!
Buddy, this isn’t “thoughtful discussion” this is the same transphobic bullshit we hear day in and day out. It’s been debunked so many times you don’t deserve a discussion, you deserve to be pelted with eggs and tomatoes until you get your clown ass of the stage
Transgender people’s existence isn’t up for debate.
Its not transphobic to question the science and statistics that are thrown around constantly. Somehow everyone’s supposed to believe this is the one single medical field that’s entirely solved, and the statistics are infallible.
It doesnt add up, and when people ask questions they get hated out, banned, and comments removed.
That makes this an echo chamber, not a place for discussion. Lemmy is not the place to debate this issue in any healthy way.
Lemmy is not the place to debate this issue in any healthy way.
You’re right, it’s not. Leave. Go play in traffic. Nobody wants you here.
Great demonstration of good mental health there.
Yes, this is exactly how you get people to convert to your side! /s
I’m not going to let you poison my opinion of trans folks, but you’re not doing them any favors right now. Go take a deep breath, friend.
Regret rate is lower then joint replacement surgery and chemotherapy.
I can’t really find a direct large scale study, honestly we should fund one. I did find this though…
This isn’t a direct study but it kind of explains the issue I was trying to communicate, and it even references the other study that was linked here:
Per that that website you linked:
Freedom2Care® fosters a Christian perspective on ethical issues and provides medically reliable and biblically sound guidance on healthcare issues. F2C features critical bioethical issues such as abortion, conscience rights in healthcare, euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide, human trafficking, embryo research, and many others.
I guess it makes sense you’re getting your talking points from people who don’t respect the bodily autonomy of women, since they also don’t seem to respect the bodily autonomy of people in general.
You have no actual points or argument and are just wasting peoples time.
OK thanks, I will take their numbers with a grain of salt. It’s looking like the regret numbers might be closer to 10-20% but that’s still pretty low and generally acceptable.
Its difficult to find large scale studies due to both the fact trans people are often understudied/represented in medical literature, and the existence of trans minors is so highly politicized. Almost all generally agreed upon data points to regret rates for gender affirming care being extremely low compared to almost every other type of treatment. Beginning HRT while you aren’t trans is pretty likely to give you biochemical dysphoria very quickly, the same way not being on HRT while you are trans can cause biochemical dysphoria.
That makes sense. Hopefully we can have some more new ones over the next couple decades!
Removed by mod
Yeah, there’s definitely data supporting this. It’s good news for sure in the medical field.
I do wonder about sample sizes and selection bias, as the ones I found seem to be a bit small and targeted. I think I’m going to research some of the larger studies that might be ongoing right now to see how they’re coming along.
If I find anything useful, I’ll post it here!
My friend, the meta analysis has been done. Consult a medical librarian. This is not controversial at all.
Oh, I’m not referring to a meta analysis… I actually avoid those because it’s a bit harder to verify all of the sample selection methods. I’m curious about direct, ongoing, large scale studies that may or may not have wrapped up.
You shouldn’t avoid them, because they’re considered the golden standard in terms of evidence. Compiling and analyzing the studies that dozens or hundreds of people have done can give much higher quality evidence than any of those studies alone.
This is true but there’s nuance to it. Often these aggregations have other issues based on their own selection methods.
So, I prefer to look at the direct relationships instead. That’s just my opinion, but I did get it from a person in the field.
I imagine the process differs a lot depending on the subject or focus of the study.
Or I’m just wrong! Oh well 🤷♂️
The issues that individual studies have, on average, tend to be flattened out when aggregated with many other studies. Basing this on what I learned this semester from someone with a PhD in a portion of class specifically devoted to understanding the different types of evidence in scientific studies, and how reliable each type is.
You can always review the methods of a meta study to see if there’s anything that leaps out at you with their selection criteria. But more data is always going to win against less data. Even a study with a p-value of 0.05 can still have results that happened entirely due to chance, but when you add many other studies with the same or similar results then you become much more certain that it wasn’t due to chance.
Against my better judgement, I’m going to engage in good faith here.
What exactly do you mean by “like this”? There is nothing about this girl altering her body in the article at all. In general, people her age transitioning is mostly social (changing name/pronouns/aesthetic) and getting care from specialists who are doctors who know more than you or I or the average person about what might help the person in question. At a certain point puberty blockers come into play, which is not really altering the body as it is preventing possible harm to the child by forcing them to go through a possible traumatic experience that we can prevent. This gives the person additional time to ensure they are confident and happy with their decision. Puberty blockers are widely studied and if a person chooses they can stop them and the puberty of their assigned sex will proceed as expected. In the case that they decide to proceed there is an extremely small regret rate and the majority of that regret is because post coming out the person was not supported by others.
Your personal experience has really nothing to do with her experience or truly any other trans persons experience, seeing as you are clearly not trans. Your thoughts on these people are irrelevant as they and their literal team of doctors likely know what’s best for them far more than you ever could. There is paper after paper and organization after organization that you can look into with stats and figures and actual evidence, so I hope before you go around assuming your personal experience is somehow more relevant or accurate than that of the majority of all trans people and accredited medical professionals, you spend some time actually bothering to look into it. If you truly believe that time will tell, then I have great news for you because we as a society have known about trans people forever, and time has indeed already told, over and over and over again: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8099405/
Thank you for all that you are sharing, @MountingSuspicion@reddthat.com . You’re a very kind and thoughtful human being - and I can see that you have a lot of patience.
I wish I had your strength of character to respond to such a person as you have.
I recognize the individual in question is thoroughly obstinate - even in the face of obvious defeat. But your words in this comment and the other ones that you shared below are illuminating and inspiring for the many readers that come across this page.
The study appears to be a meta analysis or aggregation, so it’s going to take me a bit longer to look into. If you have favorite non-aggregate studies you personally know of, please let me know too. I’m sure I’ll find some, but my searches might not lead me down the same path.
I specifically linked a meta analysis because it shows that we have collected the same data over and over again and have found the same results.
If you’re unwilling to take the current medical approach as based on science, I really can’t imagine a single study changing your mind, but just for fun, here’s one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15842032/ 0.6% regret rate
Feel free to note it’s from 2005 and treatments have generally become even more advanced since then, meaning the process of medical transition was likely more physically taxing for them and with wore outcomes than it might be for people now, two decades later.
This does a decent enough job of trying to explain my issue with the sample selection and process used:
This is standard concern trolling behavior. I provided a specific study per your explicit request, and instead of responding to that specific study you link to a random website that has a bunch of boilerplate responses that are not a response at all.
Also, per that that website you linked:
Freedom2Care® fosters a Christian perspective on ethical issues and provides medically reliable and biblically sound guidance on healthcare issues. F2C features critical bioethical issues such as abortion, conscience rights in healthcare, euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide, human trafficking, embryo research, and many others.
I guess it makes sense you’re getting your talking points from people who don’t respect the bodily autonomy of women, since they also don’t seem to respect the bodily autonomy of people in general.
I promise I’m not trolling and you can DM me if you want and I won’t get upset or emotional, just want to talk and understand.
It did also mention that study in the link, or so I thought. I could be wrong.
Thanks! It would work to your advantage to operate a bit friendlier though. How are we going to change the internet without some smiles?
I’ll take a look at the link. Personally, I just think it’s a bit harder to verify the sample integrity in aggregate studies, that’s all. I believe a good portion of the scientific community hold this belief as well, but it’s not my area of expertise.
Thanks but with respect, everyone’s personal opinion is valid. I appreciate your information and will read the article you linked.
What do you mean by valid? If I believe onions cures cancer is that a valid personal opinion? People can have opinions, sure, but especially regarding actual medical issues, not all opinions are equal.
That’s fair, maybe I used the wrong words.
I think my experience can have something to do with their experience. I think a lot of the feelings I’ve felt are similar, although not the same.
I don’t think my experience is inherently unrelated, invalid, or dismissible because I’m not trans. If you still disagree I guess that’s alright, but that’s what I meant by opinion.
Go play in traffic, Dumbass
Two day old account. Definitely a troll. I’m blocking and moving on.
