One side started war with iran while other side didn’t
One side destroyed relationship with strongest allies for nothing while other side didn’t.
One side went to war with people on the streets with ICE and lowered recruitment requirements while other side didn’t.
One side gave us Pete Hegseth while otherside didn’t.
One side started tariff war for nothing while other side didn’t.
Both sides same though I guess?
Don’t forget gutting USAID and research funding, including children’s cancer research, so they can instead pay for the hired thugs in ICE. Legitimately one of the most shameful things the US has ever done in terms of deaths caused, in the short and long term.
One side is circling their wagons around a child fucking pedophile rapist.
The other side isn’t.
The dumbest thing is how we still haven’t done anything close to what France and other countries are doing to actually make their voice heard. Won’t change my mind. Yes, you should go vote. You should also overthrow the government.
We should start with a national, general strike.
America should call the French for help overthrowing the government, like they did 250 years ago
France isn’t overthrowing their government, they’re protesting. Huge difference.
I’m down for both.
Nobody is saying you cannot demand better from your elected officials.
But if you sit at home you let fascists win.
It’s not a protest, it’s a surrender.
You can’t demand better when you give up the only leverage you have against them.
What leverage? “Give into my demands or I’ll shoot myself in the foot”?
Sorry, that should be “give into my demands or I’ll sacrifice the lives of the weak and vulnerable because their lives mean less to me than making a political point”
^^^^^^ the protest non voters are part of why so many Ukrainians are dying, why Israel has stronger and more deadly weapons, why climate change just got massively accelerated, why research funding and USAID got gutted (including life saving vaccines and children’s cancer research).
somemany of you will die but not me so that’s a price I’m willing to pay.If you’re going to not vote out of protest maybe don’t do it in the most impactful election of our lifetime.
Every election always seems to be framed as “the most important of our lifetime”. There will never be a perfect time to change our habits and actually do something different.
Now with another one of these big bogus showdowns looming down on us, I can already pick up the stench of another bummer. I understand, along with a lot of other people, that the big thing this year is Beating Nixon. But that was also the big thing, as I recall, twelve years ago in 1960 – and as far as I can tell, we’ve gone from bad to worse to rotten since then, and the outlook is for more of the same. —Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing: On the Campaign Trail ’72 (1973)
So if we don’t attempt to change now, then when? How long do we continue to let perfect be the enemy of good?
Cool, so what is the plan?
I see so many comments leading up to every election talking about needing to flip the system, make big changes, and upset the status quo. What do we actually see? You all do absolutely nothing, then crawl back into your holes after world democracy slides deeper into hell.
Some of us are out there protesting, and organising, and trying to fix what we can in our community. But we also recognise that we need to work and vote within the system we are trapped in until we can dismantle it.
This:
Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body. If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed.
—Karl Marx “Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League.” London, England. March 1850.
Vote within the system, sure. But make sure you voting for those who represent you, not the lesser evil who keeps you trapped in the system.
“You can’t vote for who actually represents you! You have to vote for your oppressor because if you don’t they will make me suffer! So, throw yourself under the bus to protect my comfort because I refuse to have solidarity with those who are currently oppressed by the status quo.”
The establishment party you keep trying to force people to vote for are already sacrificing the weak and vulnerable to maintain the system of capitalist-imperialist oppression. The party is the one sacrificing them by refusing to meet the demands of the people they are supposed to be representing.
The only (legal) leverage over the ruling class the people have is their vote for who to put in power. If you prove to always give them power regardless of if they meet the obligations of their representative position then you have thus abandoned any leverage you had to incentivize them to change.
The system is a broken one that is set up to ensure that the ruling oligarchy can continually oppress the working class so long as they threaten the middle with a “greater evil”. And it will continue as is until people stop letting perfect be the enemy of good by waiting for the perfect time to change their habits and actually vote for someone who truly represents them instead of continuing to abdicate all their political autonomy into the hands of the lesser evil.
Right, so weeks out from the midterms your suggestion is… to withhold your vote from one party to send some sort of scolding message, while letting the pedophile and his army of racist goons continue to round up minorities and threaten to deport elected officials they disagree with?
No one is asking you to throw yourself under the bus, just to realise that we are all, globally, under the bus already. Some people are just trying to get their head out from under the wheels for the slim hope of dragging their mangled bodies out of the way of the next car.
“I’ll vote for you, but you better change or I’ll vote for you again”
So you can demand better. But actually taking any concrete action to hold a party accountable when they ignore your demands is beyond the pale.
Gotta love the “logic” of ShitLibs.
You make the critical mistake in assuming that not voting for the Dems actually hurts them.
I’d say they’re also happy to be in perpetual “opposition”.
So really the only thing not voting is doing is saying that you want more dead children.
“We can demand better! We are still going to abdicate power to you regardless of if you listen but we can still technically make the demands!”
There are loads of people who think you can’t demand better from your elected officials. People were out protesting Mamdani for being a liberal zionist and I saw plenty of commenters saying how they must’ve been paid opposition because how could anyone be criticising Mamdani?
Uh-oh. You promoted voting. Time for all the dbzer0 and .ml chodes to show up and tell you why you shouldn’t do that.
Which, of course, is all the more reason to vote. If you do the opposite of anything anyone from either of those instances say, you are almost assuredly doing the right thing.
If you sit on the fence as the fence burns down, you’ll end up in the dirt with everyone else.
Oh I’ve seen a few already. It’d be adorable that they think they are making something resembling a point if it wasn’t so intentionally harmful to the future of so many people that are being oppressed to the point of suicide.
If you aren’t blocking toxic instances on Lemmy you don’t give a damn about much and probably won’t vote anyway.
Fediverse in theory: and all these different instances can connect to each other, it’s so cool!
Fediverse in practice: [bullying people for being on the wrong instance]
the instance tribalism is always so unhinged
Blocking isn’t bullying.
Painting with a broad brush much?
People who don’t vote, always end up voting for the winner.
Well said. Damn well said!
The real kicker is that the guy driving the bus is being paid to drive it off a cliff by the company that makes buses so that they can sell us a new bus even though no one will be left to buy it because the bus futures boost their stock price today.
More like 3 people vote to drive off one cliff, 3 people vote to drive off another cliff, 3 people don’t vote, and 1 person votes not to drive off the cliff.
The 3 people who didn’t vote in your scenario could band together and vote to drive off any cliff or no cliff at all. But they won’t…because what? Their vote doesn’t matter? Not a perfect cliff? Not a perfect non-cliff? Their favorite streaming series just got released and voting is really hard?
Still a bunch of dummies not using their power.
Everyone voting to not drive off a cliff would be the best choice. Doesn’t help that liberals keep shaming people who vote that way.
Yeah, people voting against their own best interests is crazy. I guess to some people driving off a cliff is worth it as long as they get to decide who pees in which bathroom?
They’ll vote to drive off their cliff just to spite the other cliff party. That party wants to drive off the east cliff? Obviously the only way to combat such extremism is to own those motherfuckers by driving off the west cliff
No, they’re making a “both sides bad” argument when one side wants desperately to find an excuse to exterminate trans people, and the other is milquetoast and ineffective.
The logic the non-voters would employ states that the bus-cliff thought experiment is stupid because obviously they’d vote to not die going off the cliff.
Point being, like republicans, they don’t care until ICE has the gun in their face.
I know you guys won’t, because your job is to convince as many people as possible not to vote after all, but god do I yearn for the day when the Democrats start to appeal to non-voters by other means than “at least we’re not as bad as the other guy”. If you think that this is an effective strategy, you might just be able to wrestle defeat from the jaws of victory. Just keep letting marginalized folk know that they shouldn’t count on their lives improving, because you’re commited to doing just slightly better than the opposition. Don’t campaign on promises of anything materially better, only on being paid off by the same interests groups as the “other side”, except for the fact you’re going to keep doing those things they paid you for - but politely. And if you think that the existence of my argument against your strategy on the internet is going to ruin your chances for it working at all, and you’re going to blame those arguing against it for your loss while you’re blasting the same old points of “we rape and murder arguably less”, then BOY can I figure out the results it’s going to bring.
Anyone who was going to vote for the lesser evil is going to do that anyway. Anyone who’s on the fence will most likely decide to sit this one out (again). Claiming it’s someones moral obligation to vote for terrible (but slightly less) people is going to depress votes, exactly as it did with Harris. Change your strategy or lose.
Just fucking… talk about the affordibility crisis and your plans to end it. About universal healthcare. About how Israel is a bunch on genocidal bastards. Just anything other than this proven, time and again, losing strategy. You have a field full of targets and a loaded gun. Only way you can miss is if you point it at your head. Or go further right to win MAGA voters, I guess…
There are democrats talking about those things, you just aren’t listening.
It’s too bad Harris didn’t during the ‘24 election, though
She did, you just weren’t listening.
She did but all we got was 24/7 coverage of “what do you have to say about israel Palestine” because apparently ukraine doesnt exist and neither do Americans or our healthcare or iran or any other issue in the world that she was infinitely better on.
I am, despite not being from USA I am following the midterm races from the imperial core because I know their results will affect my life, the way they did in previous elections. This post, and the vast majority of the propaganda spouted by Dems, is exactly that, though. There’s more criticism from the estabilishment Dems towards politicians that do make those points, like Mamdani or El-Sayed, than towards their opponents in the White House. And what does most of them do say about their plans in office? How do they campaign? Exactly the way you see here. And don’t get me wrong, I want bad politicians to lose and good ones to win. It’s good some do have reasonable strategy, they will do better than the dumbfucks who keep blasting that uncommited voters that don’t care about politics as much as they’ve been taught not to care, that just want to get through their hard day of work and worries - that those voters have to to make time to go and vote for slightly less known Epstein associate. It’s not even that I want those dogshit politicians to lose, though I can’t claim I see presidency of Newsom going better than Trump’s in terms of quality of living for people in USA, but probably noticably better for me in Europe. It’s just that they WILL LOSE AGAIN unless the messaging capabilities of the propagandists improve.
Yup.
Selective hearing. It’s insane how often people complain about Dems not doing something when it’s literally part of their party’s policy platform and has been for a while.
Or how often I see someone complain about something the Dems aren’t doing when it’s something their party or their president literally passed or signed an EO for. People just don’t pay attention. And then you list out the bills or EO’s in question and they move the goalposts and cry harder to compensate for their inability to pay attention.
Do they need to do more? Duh. Do they actually get stuff done? Yeah, they actually do. And compared to the other party that only works in opposition to Americans, they technically get infinitely more done than their opponents.
It’s a combination really. Of Dems not being good at messaging and people just not fucking paying attention.
Messaging is hampered when the message is delivered by people who oppose you. The Dems don’t need help to shoot themselves in the foot, but they get it anyway.
Not saying don’t vote of course, but boy will establishment dems pretend that this is a mandate for them. If you can, vote for progressives, for DSA, for anyone that actually will stand up to fascism.
But the bus driver supports genocide. The whole bus is rotten. We should let the bus go off the cliff and then build a new bus. I’m sure enough of us will survive the crash to build a better bus afterwards. Many people will die but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
🤡🤡🤡
Thank you for the clown emojis because I 100% thought you were seroius because of how many fools there are on Lemmy that believe that exact sentiment and they aren’t joking. Juvenile fools.
I almost added a /s too just to be safe
Pedal to the metal, accelerate!
But the bus driver supports genocide. The whole bus is rotten.
You ever notice how the ‘burn it down’ people fall into two camps?
- not in the affected area: chicken-hawk types who advocate the sacrifice of others.
- in the affected area: I didn’t know the leopards of societal collapse, starvation, and violence, would eat my face.
Type 2 also includes the “why’s it taking so long? Look at all these people suffering through the collapse. We need to make it collapse faster so we get to the good part faster” people, without acknowledging that this is what collapse looks like: lots of suffering
Yeah but you can just blame all that suffering on the people trying to hold the whole thing together, because obviously if you just let the whole thing collapse then the suffering will end abruptly and a magical utopia can finally descend from the heavens! /s
You joke, but the number of people I’ve seen posting along the lines of ‘I don’t this, I’m exempted!’ Is extremely infuriating. The individualism bubble has them thinking it’s a shield from reality.
Who said there was a good part to get to? Turns out damaging the bus in any manner, whether by driving, inaction, or burning it on the road, is all bad. No one has mentioned hitting the brakes… oh wait, which one of you cut the lines?
Just a bunch of moralists sniffing their own farts.
How about nobody in this situation is virtuous.
Go vote for pedo blue and tell yourself how righteous and great you are compared to the other shitty option camps.
Before you bitch and moan at me for differing from groupthink: I will be voting for blue pedo this turn about but I’m not gonna be online in a fart smelling circle with a bunch of do nothing moralists about it.
Please get over yourselves, you vote for slavery that’s out of sight abroad and pedos who eat babies so you can play gta6, you aren’t righteous.
pedo blue
This reeks of desperation.
I will be voting for blue pedo this turn about
Lol. Immediately abandon your morals. You don’t have a problem calling them pedos but you’ll vote for pedos…this time.
Literally what I’m talking about. Look down on people while you vote for a corporate democrat.
Your comment is exactly what I would expect from someone who just loves the smell of their own shit.
How are people supposed to feel bad about suffering when it’s people who talk down to them like you who will suffer? Maybe I will just not vote with them. Let’s crash the bus.
All in all, a good win for you though. Simpsons memes are always a hoot. I wish I was as moral and just and smart as you.
The fact you assume we aren’t holding our noses while we vote is your problem. You take a morally superior attitude while doing exactly what we’re doing. Except we don’t go around trash talking the people we’re voting for a few weeks before the election, since that might MAKE THEM FUCKING LOSE
Your presumptuousness and hypocrisy are disgusting.
Many people will die but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
But not from the genocides?
in both the thought experiment and the US vote, the genocide happens no matter which way you vote, or if you don’t vote at all… there are no choices that have a real chance of reducing the genocide
“The five non-voters are the true anarchists who see the violence inherent in the system. Actually the two who voted against driving off the cliff are wrong for even supporting a system in which voters can choose to drive the bus off the cliff. They’re actually worse than the three who voted to drive the bus off the cliff, because they tacitly approve of driving the bus off the cliff just by participating in the system which allows the bus to be driven off the cliff, while fooling themselves into feeling morally absolved of the decision to drive off the cliff! So the non-voters are the only virtuous ones in this situation”
(The /s should be clear, right?)
(The /s should be clear, right?)
… are you new to the Fediverse? I encounter such arguments uttered unironically virtually every time I browse here - especially in election season.
You’ve angered the .ml and .dbzer0 trolls.
Appropriate emojis considering the message. Hoping they’re in place of a /s
Absolutely in place of /s
Abstaining from voting is just a vote to let others choose for you. It does not exempt you from the system.
It’s not a protest, it’s a surrender.
You’re banned from .ml, !latestagecapitalism and r/Pyongyang.
I am also banned from .ml and LateStageCapitalism. Anyone who isn’t insufferable and possesses a functional brain is or will be banned from those wretched hives of scum and villainy.
BaD jAcKeTiNg
I don’t think the people downvoting this saw the mod who banned kingofras for bad jacketing proceeded to bad jacket someone else in the next thread about this subject.
Probably the same dick who banned me today honestly.
Lol. I think you got banned from Ye Powertrippin’ Bastards by that db0 dipshit right before I did.
It’s literally a sub for complaining about power tripping mods and that dipshit is going through it banning people he disagrees with. The irony is supreme.
I went to his profile and he describes himself as an “Epicurean Revolutionary Libertarian Socialist”, which had me rolling. How can he take himself seriously?
Yep I am fairly sure we’re talking about the same person. Lol
They banned me from countless subs. I actually at that point realized I never have good experiences with that instance so I went ahead and blocked it.
You forgot to end your comment with “, z-word pigdog!”
Cuck voting
Absolutely! You’re part of “the system” due to the fact that you exist…
I prefer this equivalence: abstaining is voting according to the result of the election.
Too bad it’s usually 11 people on the bus 5 vote to drive off the cliff at 60mph and 4 vote to drive off the cliff at 30mph and tell the other 2 that if they vote to not drive off the cliff, the 60mph guys will win.
“usually” is incorrect here. Voter turnout isn’t 9 out of 11 people.
well there’s that … so there is 20 people on the bus and 11 bother to vote, 2 intend to vote for the Not Driving Off a Cliff Party, and the other 9 are arguing about how fast we should drive off the cliff.
The other 9 have been convinced that voting not to drive off a cliff has no chance of working so they must pick one of the other parties
The people in the gray bar in the actual registered voter turnout graph below could band together and vote to, ya know, not drive off a cliff. But they won’t, even though they are the majority.
That’s the most frustrating part about politics. If everyone who thought “I would vote third party but they have no chance of winning” voted third party, the third party could win. But they don’t because it’s too risky, it takes votes away from the party they figure has a chance of winning. This is why ranked choice voting is needed.
How do we get enough people in power who support ranked choice voting without first voting for those people in the existing system?
Do you think I’m suggesting we shouldn’t vote because I have a criticism of the voting system?
No I am genuinely asking. I don’t know how we could do that.
We are in a thread about not voting but I am serious. How? Sorry about asking in this thead.
I don’t understand the question. The way to get to ranked choice voting IS by voting in people who support it. Why are you asking for a different way to achieve it? Nobody suggested it can be achieved otherwise. The people who are in power need to make the change happen. Unfortunately, Justin Trudeau promised to change the system and didn’t. It is difficult to change because those in power don’t have much incentive to change the system that got them in power.
Ahhh… you’re in Canada. I’m in the US. RCV is light years away for us.
Put it on the ballots at the local (city, county) level. Measures don’t begin with elected officials, they begin by figuring out the prerequisites to put measures on ballots: in some places you need petitions with enough signatures by common people for a measure to be considered, the prereqs vary per locality.
It’s funny how even when you have more than 2 parties the system still favors a 2 party system. 2025 was strange for Canada because a lot of people voted Liberal to stop the Conservatives, not because the Liberal was a great option. Green party voters are particularly frustrating because they are a single issue party and their entire platform is pretty much in the NDP platform.
Yup. I was one of the ones who voted liberal when I’d really rather vote NDP but it was more important to stop the conservatives. This is why I wish we had ranked choice voting. A few months ago, I was randomly called for a survey. When they asked me which party I’d vote for if there was an election today, I said NDP. I want polls to show NDP has a chance of winning so maybe next election they will.
I get it, I have actually held a Liberal party membership at times in my life. But the last election I didn’t really see much of a difference between the LPC and the CPC, I think we’d be in the same place today if the Cons won.
Ive said it before and I’ll say it again. While I’d rather have an NDP government, if my two practical choices are a Harper-era conservative government or a Poilievre-era conservative government, I’d rather the Harper era. One will make some rather shitty business-friendly laws, the other will do that and toss on a bunch of socially regressive ones on top.
Remember: if you stick to your morals and refuse to cosign on genocide abroad and austerity at home, whatever the other guys you’d didn’t vote for do is all your personal fault. No blame whatsoever may be assigned to the party that felt it didn’t need your vote badly enough to stop helping genocide or abandoning Neoliberalism.
-Statements from people who can’t tell politics from sports.
