- cross-posted to:
- gaming@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- gaming@beehaw.org
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I’ve only ever really watched this unfold with a causal interest, so whilst I’d like to know more, that article really said very little aside from a few dates and numbers.
More so, and the reason I’m making this comment, is the whole thing felt 100% like the second output of a GPT print. That format of “why is this the way it is? There at several reasons…” followed by a bunch of points that barely address the question, let alone answer it. That and the random bolder phrases.
Still, maybe is had more work put into it than Star Citizen?
Quite a lot of work has gone into sc (more work then exists in the game, thanks Chris Roberts), the problem is, and I’m saying this as someone who has played it with friends, there isn’t a lot of gameplay loop to play. There are gameplay loops, but imo they are kinda… meh?
Which makes me sad. I really want sc to be more than it is.
Roberts is the king of focusing on the wrong shit. Build out the gameplay loops before tacking on dumb shit? Nah let’s put milk and cookies in this bitch.
Ugh, yea, it reads like AI-generated output. Sus site.
Who are the people who keep donating? Like, maybe around the Kickstarter era around 2010-2014 where all you needed was a popular name to get a huge donation. But after 2017, when everyone realized this game is going nowhere… why is there still support?
Why are people are still buying digital ships and bankrolling them?
Are they in a abusive relationship? Are they okay?
I buy ships sometimes. AMA. I have fun with it too :)
I’m an OG kickstarter backer and I kinda stopped caring a long time ago so I’m not super up to date on this stuff but, last time I checked it was infinitely more profitable for them to stay in development forever than to eventually release the game, has that ever been addressed ?
Same I was an OG kickstarter and after seeing the glacial development of the arena prototype I checked out. Came back for the persistent universe, it was so buggy as to be unplayable, checked out again (and sold my “lifetime insurance” too, made several times what I spent on that).
I just don’t see this going anywhere as long as Chris Roberts keeps focusing on dumb shit and not the core gameplay. It has become evident that Freelancer being as good as it is was a happy accident.
Freelancer was as good as it was because Microsoft bought the studio, and Roberts was out, they then spent a while cutting it down in scope and trying to fix it.
It’s a miracle.
https://gameranx.com/updates/id/70033/article/the-chris-roberts-theory-of-everything/
Good article on it.
It took me two hours to read through that thing but it was well worth it. Fascinating article with some great insights into Chris Roberts, and seemingly as relevant now as it was in 2016.
I don’t know if they’ve directly addressed this, as it seems like a terrible thing to even acknowledge, PR-wise even though it’s true. Though that doesn’t really affect my enjoyment of the game in it’s current state.
Honest question I have been wondering:
Why SC out of all the space sim/sandbox games? Is there anything that this game has that no other game provides? Something about the community, a combination of features, gameplay loop or something else?
There are hundreds of games in that genre but many people obviously like SC so much that they are willing to spend larger amounts of money on it. I really wonder what it is exactly or if it’s just the general feel that game has. It’s not an easy question to answer from an outside perspective, its hard finding anything about SC at all except about its monitisation.
And again: I’m genuinely curious and not judging. People can like whatever game they want and spend as much money as they are willing to part with. I have often searched for an answer to this, but most articles/videos either say “expensive crap” if they don’t like it or don’t go beyond “it’s a space sim” if they do.
Thanks for asking a question and not immediately bashing my opinion! It’s not a common response I get with this game.
For me, SC as a space sim offers more of the “sim” than any other game. For example, my recent favorite gameplay loop is being a rescue medic. I have a cutlass red, which is red, has ambulance-like lights, and a med bay. I get kitted up with red armor, healing supplies and tools, and lots of extra food and water. Plus a few guns because whatever injured people is likely going to try to get me too.
Once all the shopping is done, I load up my cutlass red and wait for someone to submit a rescue beacon. (they can do this when rendered unconscious with a single key press) Once I get one, I speed over (I have equipped a very inefficient but very fast warp drive) and extract them or heal them on the spot if possible, and clear out any enemies in the mean time.
This is some of the most satisfying and rewarding gameplay I’ve ever experienced. Because it’s not a level someone designed, it’s pure emergent gameplay with extremely heavy simulation roots. There is no teleporting in and out of ships. Every door in the ship has a little button I have to press to open it. I have to stay hydrated. The little things add to it. It all comes together to make some of the best content I’ve ever experienced.
And the people I save are genuinely grateful. It takes time and effort to buy a whole new set of armor and weapons and such, so I’m saving them all that time and money, and while obviously not as impactful as actually saving a life, it makes it much much more gratifying than, say, resurrecting someone in planetside or squad or something.
That’s just one type of gameplay. But the principle is the same with other gameplay loops. It’s the most in-depth space simulation I can get right now. Sure, some other games are more polished, have better ship combat, run better (okay ALL of them run better), etc. But none of them have everything that SC does, with the level of realism that SC does, with the in-instance ship interiors that SC does.
As far as buying ships goes, honestly I just like big ships. I used to climb on tractors when I was a little kid. They were so much bigger than me and just looking at them filled me with a sense of awe. This game does the same. I have spent quite a bit on it over the years, but only $10 or $30 here and there, to upgrade existing ships to others. You can trade in ships for other ships, melt them down for store credit, use that to get different ships. I’ve had so many ships just from swapping them around and every time I spend money it’s just the price of ordering out, for a lot more enjoyment than I’d get from a pizza. It eventually added up to several hundred dollars and it was personally worth it for me to feel that amazing feeling of exploring what is essentially a mobile skyscraper or a hot rod or an ambulance or a fortress of destruction. You can earn most of these in game as well. But it’s easier to get that dopamine hit immediately for the price of an unhealthy meal haha. Now that I have that much money invested, it’s still “liquid” in that I can melt down my ships at any time and basically buy any currently purchasable ship immediately with no additional money spent.
Edit: since you mentioned community, the SC community is pretty like-minded. The people I save often go on to be my friends and play with me sometimes. Everyone is very nice. The most toxicity I ever see are people who join the game and shit on it, while insulting everyone else who plays it, then most likely leave and uninstall. These are people who think the game is a scam, maybe they’re original kickstart backers who are just mad about the game or even just bought it to ride on the hate train. (being mad after backing the kickstarter is a valid stance, but I’m not going to get into that here. The only invalid stance is believing other people shouldn’t enjoy the game.) The people who ACTUALLY play it regularly already know what they’re getting into. They have no illusions about what this game is, and because of that they end up being one of the most welcoming communities of any game I’ve played. Everyone’s just here to have fun with cool space ships and each other.
Disclaimer: I agree that SC is a burning pile of spaghetti code that will likely never be finished. I agree that they made promises in the kickstarter that they did not fulfill. I know you can buy thousands of dollars worth of in-game ships for an incomplete game. It will likely never finish. Yet I still play the game. And it’s really fun! Come play with me some time :)
I have to stay hydrated
This is actually one of the changes I like least. I love survival games (one of my favourite games ever is Wurm Online/Wurm Unlimited and it’s hardcore) and play modded Arma so I know how fun this level of immersion can be, but it just feels awful in SC. Stock up on snacks and water, go to warp to mission, get sucked out of the ship. Ok start the recall timer… get the ship back, load it up again, warp out and back, can’t rearm or refuel. Welp junk all my stuff again and relog because nothing but my running costs are persistent (nuking any semblance of immersion). Warp timers clocking 20 minutes? Yep you’re playing SC. Guy hotdrops on you while you’re trying to have fun and blows your ship up before you can even see him coming? Very immersive, especially because you know he got nothing out of it other than the satisfaction that you didn’t get to have fun.
Adding food and health bars while none of this rest of this works right feels like shit.
Yeah I can agree that it sucks major ass right now. The idea is cool, but it does get very annoying when re-buying stuff after dealing with bugs. One change that could fix all of this is getting to take out insurance on not just your ship, but your ship and everything in it (not including, like, ore or something. Only stuff you can buy.). So if I ever claim a ship, I could make that specific ship come with a specific set of armor, specific personal guns, ammo, medical supplies, and even food and water.
I do like shopping for stuff. But if I already know what I’m buying, especially if it’s the same stuff every time, I’d like my ship to come with it.
On a side note, drinking while in the pilot seat should be automatic, or at least very easy. I get so thirsty just sitting in my seat flying or idling/waiting.
But the idea of having to tend to bodily needs is something I definitely agree with and think is fun for a simulation, at the base level.
Edit: on many of the bigger ships, like the mercury star runner, there should certainly be waste recycling to provide you with water. It has toilets. It’s meant to sustain life for a long time. It has a bed and a fridge. There’s no reason to not let the ship help keep us hydrated.
Modern astronauts can drink while in their suits, why is this an issue in Star Citizen? It makes no sense.
I agree with you in concept, but I think certain suits wouldn’t make sense with that functionality. The skin-tight EVA suits with the small helmets, that have just a few minutes of oxygen I feel wouldn’t have the room/capability to allow the user to eat/drink hands-free. But there are several suits that are bigger, and designed for extended exploration sessions that have tons of oxygen storage and larger helmets/built-in backpacks that would absolutely have other life support like food/water built-in.
The smaller suits are designed just in case you need to EVA, and many ships have dining areas so you can pop the helmet off and enjoy a meal in comfort.
That’s a great observation about you hanging out around tractors as a kid and having that sense of awe. I had a similar thing as a kid with my grandpa working on semis and old cars. I really hope they do pull the game off despite my brain telling me this is all a house of cards. But exploring ships and space is so damn fun, this is the closest game to that. Tried all the X games and Elite and everything in between and SC, broke as it is, still has me holding out hope. At the very least if they never make it to a full release I hope someone else tries something similar. Starfield is fun but not scratching the same itch.
Well, thanks for that in-depth answer. It’s nice to talk about the actual contets of a game for once, instead of only talking around it like it’s usually the case nowadays.
It’s very interesting to hear about all this. I actually think there are a lot of games with far worse monetisation (think all the Airplane/Train simulators where you can buy singular vehicles for hundreds of dollars).
I’ll probably won’t play it tho, I don’t have the money, Conputing Power, or time lol
Yeah time is a big one. It definitely requires time and patience to actually get to the good gameplay sometimes.
I haven’t played much of it, but what I can say about why I bought the game: Big space ships with interiors (most space sims really just give you a cockpit view) and the game looked cool. I paid $60 for it years ago and hop in it every now and again. You hear all about the monetization aspect of it and it’s not really been a problem for me since it doesn’t impact me in any way.
Why are you having fun? You’re not supposed to have fun. Wahh!
Have they stuck to a control scheme? I feel like every time I log in I have to relearn how to fly my ship and I get bored and then come back after a big patch and its different again.
Last patch I would have said yes but this patch they changed a bunch of things again haha.
Sunk cost fallacy at this point.
Paid too much to stop playing and paying. You can buy second hand cars for the price of some of that shit.
I bought a super base version when they finally released some shit thinking it’d actually come out. That was like 16 maybe? Check in every few years and am always amazed at how little they’ve got done since the last time. It’s obviously vaporware. I hope someone starts a nice class action lawsuit against them. It’s fraud at this point.
I do the same thing and have tons of issues with how they’re making the game. That being said it’s far from vaporware. The experience is pretty jank at the moment but 2 years ago when I played a lot it was stable and you could sink a lot of hours into an actual gameplay experience, which is far from vaporware from my understanding. Theoretically you still can but I’m waiting to play until it’s more stable. It’s still alpha yeah but when it works it’s an actual game, albeit far from expectations and promises.
People should absolutely criticize the development but calling it fraud seems a stretch, they clearly have a product it’s just like 6 years away probably from being what they talked about 6 years ago lol. It seems more like mismanagement and development bloat. The insane backers notwithstanding. Even if they dump development now I had some fun times with $45 spent. It’s certainly an interesting experience to behold, I just think the hyperbole around the game can be ridiculous. My two cents.
Because they want to fly the digital ships?
In a game that doesn’t exist?
The game isn’t complete, but there are plenty of things to do and ships to fly right now.
Imagine still believing you’re going to get a functioning game.
I was an initial Kickstarter who pretty much knew this was going to happen but had $60 to gamble. Fucking lolol the development hell has far exceeded my wildest expectations for Roberts inability to deliver a finished project.
Yep, also a Kickstarter (well, before the Kickstarter actually) and I got my money’s worth with the drama and ongoing development comedy.
Sell your lifetime insurance and get several times your money. No regrets for me.
This article leaves a lot to be desired imo. Some of the stuff in here you can see is incorrect just from launching into the main menu of the game.
Here is my personal take on Star Citizen as someone who’s been following the project from the beginning:
If it’s something that interests you, you should wait for a free fly weekend and try it out. The game is far from done but it’s fleshed out enough now that you can have fun if it’s your thing. If you think it’s not worth buying, don’t buy it. Then you can come back on the next free weekend to check it out again and see the progress.
Everything else is just noise. Yes the game has raised a lot of money, yes there has probably been mismanagement and development has been slow. Yes there’s still a ways to go before feature completeness.
TLDR: Who cares. Go play it if it’s your thing and have fun, or don’t and just forget about it until they hit 1.0 sometime who knows when.
People who paid money expecting the promised timelines instead of useless feature creep, care very much. In fact people cared so much that CIG changed the user agreement to no longer allow refunds.
They took a stupid amount of money from people all while promising timelines that were never kept, and a game that I doubt will ever see completion before bankruptcy.
They need to stop throwing money and precious development time on minuscule features when their alpha can barely run on modern hardware without taking 10min to load and crashing shortly thereafter.
I hope that I am wrong about SC and the game does come out some day, because I will absolutely love the game in stable form; but the last few years have been painting a very grim picture of SC’s future
Fun fact, the user agreement doesn’t mean anything in Australia. Australian’s can get a refund any time they want because legally we cannot sign away our rights.
I got a refund a while back after I discussed this point, and my grievances with their broken promises, delivery failures and increasingly hostile sales tactics with RSIs (at the time) Director of Player Retention, Will Leverett.
Yeah, that’s fair enough. I think they should definitely give refunds to folks but that’s also the risk you take with backing a project. I’ve had plenty of disappointment with backing games, I don’t consider SC in that category but I can definitely understand people who do.
Of course, I’ve had my share of starts go tits up; but we are talking about 600m and a company that is still actively trying to sell more.
This article was the same paragraph over and over. “Lot money, lot time, no game, please say date.” I didn’t really learn anything about the situation or controversies.
Welcome to modern “journalism”.
Well, I don’t think it was written by a “journalist”. It was probably written by AI, at least in part…
If they give me a refund I will stop caring, until then you don’t really get to say ‘who cares, forget about it for another decade’. I paid money for a product that still doesn’t exist and is more than 8 years overdue, and that’s even without getting into the discussion about whether the PU is worth it or not - where is sq42?
People paid money because they were promised a finished game by 2014. It’s still nowhere near finished. It hasn’t had an estimated release date for years.
Sure, if you enjoy the game at its current state, fine. No one should take that joy away from you.
Making $600 million over the course of a decade.
Nowhere
Star Citizen release vs GameStop going to the moon, who will win.
Robert probably thinks he is on the moon, so RSI?
If there’s only 1 lesson you take from this, it’s that you should never pre-order, never kickstart. Risk should never be offloaded to the consumer
Pillars Of Eternity, Rimworld, FTL, Shovel knight Divinity OS 1 and 2 were all made possible thanks to kickstarter.
Without the success of kickstarter games there would also be a snowball effect. Games like BG3, Outerwilds and Stray would not have been made.
For every success, there’s 100s and more failures, scams, and unfulfilled promises. Developers should seek traditional funding if they’re so confident in their idea. If I’m taking a financial risk on a developer, I should get a financial return if it succeeds. “Kickstarting” is a fancy way of saying “lets socialize losses and privatize profits”.
I’ve only crowdfunded a handful of gsmes, mostly vr. Because they can’t get traditional funding. Despite this I want to support projects that could be interesting. Without Kickstarter these projects would not exist, rather than switch to traditional funding.
I know there’s risk, i know they may never get finished. But its worth the risk in case a true gaming gem comes out.
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uh. no? BG3 is my favorite game and it was EA before release.
The grift or grifts as it relates to gaming…DayZ is a close second.
I had a lot of fun playing DayZ though, lol.
Same here, put a good 150 hrs with friends. Solo sucks.
I have no friends so it was always solo, lol. Which would be the same case if I played this “game”.
Serves people right for crowdfunding a game let alone one built around some libertarian wet dream where you have to buy your way to success, dropping thousands on content like spaceships.
You realize they’re developing two games simultaneously and the star citizen hate is only banked by people who don’t realize they’ve literally told everyone that SC isn’t getting content updates until Squadron 42 is done.
Secondly, buying ships for money is advertised as “do this if you want to support our game”. The ship cost being relative to a supporter tier if it was Patreon. Every single ship available can be bought and earned in game without spending more than $35 for the game’s basic access package.
Serves dumbasses right who expect news cycled to them and can’t do basic 5 minutes of critical thinking to eat slop like this article
the star citizen hate is only banked by people who don’t realize they’ve literally told everyone that SC isn’t getting content updates until Squadron 42 is done.
And when will that be done?
I don’t know, it’s a good question but my point is how cringe of a hate train this game gets from people who haven’t a fucking clue what they’re talking about just to farm the feeling they’re with the in crowd. RSI has missed a lot of deadlines, but star citizen looks so unfinished because everything they’re working on isn’t being put in the PU nor heavily marketed. They’re not just sitting on a dragons hoard doing nothing
SC itself is self admitted a tech demo and like all early access games you’re told to only buy into them if you want to support the game. No one is holding a gun to backers’ heads and forcing them to buy jpg concepts
inb4 they start working on a third game and then tell you that Squadron 42 won’t be getting new content until that third game is done.
Both games started at the same time and are developed using the same engine and technology so this is honestly just a boring response
I mean, it’s an obvious scam. Always has been. They only have a few tech demos, and bunch of polished marketing material. There’s nothing to actually release.
I do not believe it to be an outright scam. However, it is horribly managed and I do consider the funding model to be predatory.
The whole “pledge” store should not be a thing at this stage IMO. It’s just a cash shop they can justify huge prices with. It’s actively contributed to the scope creep by introducing new vehicle roles, which they sometimes admit to not having designed gameplay for yet. Nor does it currently tell you if you can actually rent or buy the ship in-game (subject to progress wipes). Heck, the closest thing to a scam they’ve had recently was a “new starter bundle” of in-game gear that you lose upon your first death / unrecoverable body. This is a game where 80% of your deaths are to bugs or unintuitive behaviour.
They also keep trying to change their standards to match modern games. Ships have gone through multiple reworks which take months for a single ship. A sensible dev would lock that in and commit to releasing under those standards. It’s been pointed out that with the current rate of progress, they’ll still be releasing currently announced ships into the 2030s.
That’s not even mentioning the single player component, Squadron 42, which got indefinitely delayed a few years back before a major demo showcase which never materialised. Supposedly, it’s been scrapped and re-done more than once.
Their last big chance to show they’ve pulled things together is going to be the upcoming CitizenCon (yes, it has one) where they’ll supposedly be making a big Squadron 42 announcement. A former customer service employee, who recently criticised the company’s spending practices, claimed they’d taken a much more serious approach to the scope creep and that we’d see some results of that towards the end of this year.
I’m not holding my breath though. They’ve been known to create bullshit for presentations before (e.g the infamous sand worm) and I absolutely would not be surprised if Chris Roberts feels pressured to one-up Starfield.
As a side note, does anyone else get the impression this article was written by an AI? It repeatedly lists of buzzword features, like the Hangar module which hasn’t been relevant for years, and barely discusses what the game is actually like.
The fanbois have obviously found this story and voting down the people saying how obvious the grift was/is.
I wonder how many other space sim genre games that conspicuously did not hand out the begging bowl, or squander all their money and were actually delivered have happened in the time that Star Citizen hasn’t. Being generous the best that can be said is the project is just badly mismanaged. At worst, and more realistically, much of that money just got siphoned away to fund lifestyles. Maybe the devs know they can run this grift for as long as their people stupid enough to keep funding them, knowing they’ll never have to actually deliver on their promises.
