Encouraging gender identity as a choice diminishes the struggle of trans people today. I’m not against it in principle, but the current political climate doesn’t have room for this stuff. Give society 20 years to figure out how to be equitable berore peddling this narrative.
"not pursuing or discussing what the truth might be, because of political opponents".
Political opponents who want you un-existing either way, and will use any excuse and lie available to barely mask that hate of theirs.
Neither those people’s “understanding”, nor their amount of available means to mask their hate, really affects trans people’s freedom.
The "average Joe" can't be "won over" either, because they don't care. Until something happens, to make them care. Like an a acquaintance or loved one being involved.
But in the off-chance that they can, (without being personally affected), they will be won over by recognising a truth of the world.
Victory by “reasonable vibes”, is achieved by reaffirming what’s already in someone else’s head. It’s only a victory if you’re trying to not change something.
So seek the truth. Don’t appeal to the good nature of the oppressor.
I don’t like it either but it’s a pragmatic argument. I think you’re a bit out of touch with how society can move forward if we introduce polarizing ideas. We haven’t wrangled how trans women fit into sports. You really think the “let’s make it a choice” argument is going to help with that?
Plenty of average joes are fine with gay people now, not racist, not misogynistic. We will get there as a society if we try to find common ground. Like I said, it may take another 20 years to sort out how to be equitable to a very marginalized group of people (maybe longer). This trans is a choice rhetoric will prolong that because it diminished any common ground that we are starting to form.
Is that the take away from the comic? I see it as more someone trying to explore through clothing and someone saying theyw would be supportive?
Are we so defensive we can’t even have that anymore? Are we unable to discuss gender presentation and identity detached from transition? What about nonbinary identities? Some people explore that and transition, some don’t.
Are we really supposed to be regressive and call it self protection? Are we at the “respectable transgender” era along with “I’m gay but I don’t know about this trans stuff” already?
He is someone who already transitioned (transmasc) and still enjoys wearing feminine clothing, what the girl did here can feel very very invalidating and dysphoria inducing because despite passing she still sees them as a girl. For me situations like that make me feel hella dysphoric.
I’m in femboy communities and I know many of them also dislike when this happens to them as well, but it doesn’t compare to the gender dysphoria I get from people still thinking I’m a girl.
I agree that we really do need to discuss gender identity and presentation separate from transition, I also think we need to discuss presentation separate from gender identity, after all if boys are allowed to wear skirts, why do people naturally assume we must be girls if/when we do?
I didn’t realize there was deep lore in an egg_irl post, i took it as the comic it was.
Without that background information, (that is not included unless i stalk the OP, which doesn’t feel like it would endear anyone to my participation) it feels close to a comic could reinforce the “you can’t win trying to be supportive to queer people these days” energy since there’s nothing clear about there being a boundary made by the other person in the comic? Maybe there’s something i missed on the lemmy ui, I’m willing to admit!
As an older queer i am not quite sure when we decided clothing meant anything (again) since growing up it was something we already tried to work on in the queer community, just look into lesbian spaces and their attempts to uncouple femininity from being required to dress up. Have binary identities and enforcing trans people to present a particular way backfired into hyper gendered expressions being required?
Another question is how can the community help individuals vulnerable to invalidation of parts of their identity? I know everyone needs support as a whole and in general in their lives. The ability to stand strong in yourself in the storm can’t be manufactured without a foundation, and how do we help newbies find that with the atmospheres as tense as they are, even in queer spaces?
It’s okay, I forgot to mark it as Transmasc and Transphobia. Without that there’s no way anyone else could’ve known.
I never intended to have that message, was just trying to share a situation which was uncomfortable and invalidating for me due to someone else assuming my gender (thinking I am AMAB transfem when I’m AFAB and transmasc).
I don’t know if as you said binary identities and expectations of trans people have backfired as you said, I do know that people who follow gender stereotypes have had a tendency sort of force them onto others. It happens a lot to femboys and people say they are an egg or transfem. Which isn’t great on its own but in my case I’m a femboy and transmasc so it’s worse.
It’s hard but I think that having such rigid expectations of presentation isn’t helping. Like, so what if I was AMAB and looked and dressed the way I am, so what. Why would that make me a girl or egg? That doesn’t seem helpful, and at least for an AMAB femboy it wouldn’t be exactly harmful, it’s not always obvious that they are. I’ve met many enbies who had similar experiences with invalidation from gender stereotypes and it sucks.
![egg😣irl [Transmasc] [CW: Transphobia]](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/bf39ba1f-b01c-43fd-b899-79756511c574.webp){kind=link}
Encouraging gender identity as a choice diminishes the struggle of trans people today. I’m not against it in principle, but the current political climate doesn’t have room for this stuff. Give society 20 years to figure out how to be equitable berore peddling this narrative.
I don’t like this argument.
You’re advising
"not pursuing or discussing what the truth might be, because of political opponents".
Political opponents who want you un-existing either way, and will use any excuse and lie available to barely mask that hate of theirs.
Neither those people’s “understanding”, nor their amount of available means to mask their hate, really affects trans people’s freedom.
The "average Joe" can't be "won over" either, because they don't care. Until something happens, to make them care. Like an a acquaintance or loved one being involved.
But in the off-chance that they can, (without being personally affected), they will be won over by recognising a truth of the world.
Victory by “reasonable vibes”, is achieved by reaffirming what’s already in someone else’s head. It’s only a victory if you’re trying to not change something.
So seek the truth. Don’t appeal to the good nature of the oppressor.
(tap)
for more, at least in Jerboa.
I don’t like it either but it’s a pragmatic argument. I think you’re a bit out of touch with how society can move forward if we introduce polarizing ideas. We haven’t wrangled how trans women fit into sports. You really think the “let’s make it a choice” argument is going to help with that?
Plenty of average joes are fine with gay people now, not racist, not misogynistic. We will get there as a society if we try to find common ground. Like I said, it may take another 20 years to sort out how to be equitable to a very marginalized group of people (maybe longer). This trans is a choice rhetoric will prolong that because it diminished any common ground that we are starting to form.
Is that the take away from the comic? I see it as more someone trying to explore through clothing and someone saying theyw would be supportive?
Are we so defensive we can’t even have that anymore? Are we unable to discuss gender presentation and identity detached from transition? What about nonbinary identities? Some people explore that and transition, some don’t.
Are we really supposed to be regressive and call it self protection? Are we at the “respectable transgender” era along with “I’m gay but I don’t know about this trans stuff” already?
He is someone who already transitioned (transmasc) and still enjoys wearing feminine clothing, what the girl did here can feel very very invalidating and dysphoria inducing because despite passing she still sees them as a girl. For me situations like that make me feel hella dysphoric.
I’m in femboy communities and I know many of them also dislike when this happens to them as well, but it doesn’t compare to the gender dysphoria I get from people still thinking I’m a girl.
I agree that we really do need to discuss gender identity and presentation separate from transition, I also think we need to discuss presentation separate from gender identity, after all if boys are allowed to wear skirts, why do people naturally assume we must be girls if/when we do?
I didn’t realize there was deep lore in an egg_irl post, i took it as the comic it was.
Without that background information, (that is not included unless i stalk the OP, which doesn’t feel like it would endear anyone to my participation) it feels close to a comic could reinforce the “you can’t win trying to be supportive to queer people these days” energy since there’s nothing clear about there being a boundary made by the other person in the comic? Maybe there’s something i missed on the lemmy ui, I’m willing to admit!
As an older queer i am not quite sure when we decided clothing meant anything (again) since growing up it was something we already tried to work on in the queer community, just look into lesbian spaces and their attempts to uncouple femininity from being required to dress up. Have binary identities and enforcing trans people to present a particular way backfired into hyper gendered expressions being required?
Another question is how can the community help individuals vulnerable to invalidation of parts of their identity? I know everyone needs support as a whole and in general in their lives. The ability to stand strong in yourself in the storm can’t be manufactured without a foundation, and how do we help newbies find that with the atmospheres as tense as they are, even in queer spaces?
It’s okay, I forgot to mark it as Transmasc and Transphobia. Without that there’s no way anyone else could’ve known.
I never intended to have that message, was just trying to share a situation which was uncomfortable and invalidating for me due to someone else assuming my gender (thinking I am AMAB transfem when I’m AFAB and transmasc).
I don’t know if as you said binary identities and expectations of trans people have backfired as you said, I do know that people who follow gender stereotypes have had a tendency sort of force them onto others. It happens a lot to femboys and people say they are an egg or transfem. Which isn’t great on its own but in my case I’m a femboy and transmasc so it’s worse.
It’s hard but I think that having such rigid expectations of presentation isn’t helping. Like, so what if I was AMAB and looked and dressed the way I am, so what. Why would that make me a girl or egg? That doesn’t seem helpful, and at least for an AMAB femboy it wouldn’t be exactly harmful, it’s not always obvious that they are. I’ve met many enbies who had similar experiences with invalidation from gender stereotypes and it sucks.
…