The same organization is making it very clear that this is not proof because they only have publicly available Intel.
The group cited several clips believed to be of the explosion from different sources and claimed the “geolocation and timing of the footage is conclusive”. However, they said their conclusions are not “proven fact”.
“That doesn’t mean that they are THE truth, just what we think is highly likely based on our geolocations(facts) and logic/reason,” they wrote on Twitter.
“We are geolocators, not official investigators… To be sure what really happened, different official investigations are needed.”
Israel and the US have more intelligence that could definitely prove what happened…
But for some reason they aren’t releasing it. Most logical reason is it shows Israel launched it, or blew up the hospital while trying to shoot a rocket down.
If it cleared Israel, that satellite footage would be out by now. Gaza is too tiny for me to believe Israel just wasn’t surveiling it at the time.
You think intelligence agencies would release primary source data that could reveal collection methods and fidelity to other nation state intelligence agencies just to win PR points?
There’s only one individual I can think of that would do something like that, and he’s currently facing charges relating to his handling of classified materials.
Are you talking about former president Donald Buttcheeks?
Is that really the most logical conclusion to be drawn? It’s been less than a day, and I would really hope intellegince services are more diligent than your average twitter sleuth. Id rather they be right than first, personally.
Also what satellite footage are you talking about?
You dont think Israel has satellites looking at Gaza?
It’s a very very small area, and missiles/rockets are more than visible enough. It should be really easy to see if it came from Israel or further in Gaza.
Hamas doesn’t have satellites, so it makes sense they can’t offer proof.
If Israel wants people to believe them in 2023, they need to understand they’ve already burnt up their benefit of doubt.
Bro 1 quick google search and you have a satellite image of the hospital. Ya’ll just don’t wanna believe anything Israel says at this point.
Not OP but my read on this is that OP is suggesting that Israel or the US should have a recording of the rocket being fired that would have been captured by a satellite and could be shared.
Obviously there are images that have been published showing the destruction, but it’s not clear to me how looking at a picture of rubble would help to establish the origin of the rocket fire.
Given how many bombs have been dropped in Gaza (
), it’s easy for me to imagine that the destruction of this Palestinian hospital was due to an errant Israeli bomb, but pretty difficult to imagine that a Hamas soldier with bad aim accidentally took out one of their only hospitals. From the outside, it feels like the burden of proof lies with the side that seems to be trying to flatten Gaza, not the side without access to food, water, electricity, or medical supplies.
Having said that, I sincerely doubt that this will be the last atrocity committed by either side before this is over, so I doubt that we will ever get any evidence that is truly conclusive.
it’s easy for me to imagine that the destruction of this Palestinian hospital was due to an errant Israeli bomb, but pretty difficult to imagine that a Hamas soldier with bad aim accidentally took out one of their only hospitals.
Maybe it’s because your missing context. Depending on the type of rocket fired, Palestine rockets generally fail to leave the Gaza Strip between 5-20% of the time. A small imperfection in the steel of a water pipe may not cause a failure for 100 years of used to transport water. But that same imperfection can easily buckle under the load of sever g’s during rocket launch. Hundreds of people have died in Gaza from Gazan rockets that didn’t make it to target and it’s standard practice for Hamas to blame am Israeli airstrike for the rocket’s failure.
Oh yeah that totally makes sense, and I’m not excluding the possibility that it could have been Hamas. Both sides are involved in some pretty fucked up shit, nobody’s hands are clean here.
In this case we have one side who conducted a hostage raid and slaughtered civilians living in kibbutz (which are essentially the Jewish equivalent to the Amish or Mennonites), started a war as the aggressors, have launched 2-20k rockets of various types at Israel somce the atart of hostilities (widely disputed), has been car bombing people trying to evacuate (and falsely blamed it on an Israeli airstrike), admittedly accidentally bombed a hospital (and falsely blamed it on an Israeli airstrike).
There’s one side here who is clearly more wrong than the other.
Yes…
Google maps is a thing, but Israel and the US has live satellite coverage. I guarantee Israels is pointed in that area
And again One quick google search brings you to satellite pictures of the damage published by Israel (and also by other non biased news sources) Just search for it, please. I understand you have your agenda but come on don’t let it hide truths and evidence.
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I don’t understand. Ya’ll think Israel is gonna burn an intelligence asset they have by making it public just so people who are already convinced by one narrative (because underdogs are always easier to support) have proof of one attack not being their own? They have better use for that intelligence. Like fighting a war.
a’ll think Israel is gonna burn an intelligence asset
Everyone knows they have satellites, it’s not like it’s an informant…
And the resolution of those satellites is literally a state secret. You won’t ever see direct imaging from them being released publicly.
Edit: Also US intelligence said this assessment comes in part based on communications intercepts, which you are definitely never seeing directly released unless leaked.
Serious off topic question:
Why do some people work their way down a comment chain replying to the same person multiple times?
Do you really want to have multiple simultaneous conversations with the same person?
Do you just not check the username and not know?
It happens a lot on Lemmy, so I’m genuinely curious why people do it, especially when they do it all within minutes
Because sometimes people post different ridiculous things along the way of other conversations that are incorrect in different ways.
A broad comment about releasing intelligence materials warranted one response.
A specific comment about releasing satellite imaging data warranted a different one.
Both poor hot takes, but for different reasons.
You could just block me so you never see my comments again
If I block you you’ll still see mine and keep spamming questions that will go forever unanswered, so figured I’d let you know about the option.
I’m not responding to you personally so much at responding in a communal thread to naive or incorrect points.
Again, this shouldn’t exactly be new news at this point, as stories on topics like how revealing satellite imaging reveals state secrets have been mainstream stories before (i.e. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanocallaghan/2019/09/01/trump-accidentally-revealed-the-amazing-resolution-of-u-s-spy-satellites/ ).
But it’s less about trying to convince you personally that the idea USINT would release satellite images to back up claims by Israel is ridiculous, and more about providing the context for anyone else that follows on the conversations’ wake.
If it was about you personally, I’d have direct messaged.
And blocking people that disagree with points online is kind of puerile, so that’s not a place my mind ever went to.
But feel free to block if you want. Again - it’s not about you.
Have you also considered the crab people ?
Yeah the original claims seemed as likely to be true as all the times that terrorists fought to take credit for disasasters that didn’t involve them. It’s quick easy points in fast moving propaganda campaigns. That being said I have seen this fricking twitter thread of internet sleuths used like 4 times and called different things and we keep passing around the same short clip and the complete nonsense arguments.
No I don’t think anyone can say anything about this other than a hospital in gaza was partially blown up like many others and people are still suffering while aid is being kept at arms length from the victims. That’s the real story and I don’t care who did it until real intelligence has something to say on the matter.
https://twitter.com/GrantSmithEllis/status/1714399186295111815?t=wxkjKFCi8k2oZ0FTiwxV1g&s=19
10-minute video captured by AJArabic around the time the al-Ahli hospital was hit.
As per @Ted55643099:
Explosions on this video: (0:19) hospital. (0:16, 4:25, 4:49) behind and to the left of the hospital. (5:33, 5:56, 9:26, 10:46) behind hospital, most likely the same place. (9:38, 10:51) to the right of the hospital outside of the frame, likely the same place.
Crosspost from a similar thread:
So this here is the current view on the area where supposedly about 500 people died. Also there are allegedly more than 300 wounded.
Questions I personally have:
- where is the rubble and where is the bomb crater?
- why does the building seem undamaged?
- how do you fit 800 people in this parking lot?
Well Israel has dropped more bombs this week alone than the entire Afghan war, so it isn’t obscene to think the few hospitals left standing are overcrowded by the thousands. If OSINT is to be believed, it hit the parking lot and wiped out that many people, its a pretty fucking big parking lot. And if it was Hamas, they do not have as powerful of payloads as Israel, so I would assume they were just too weak to collapse the building.
Also it’s unclear how many people died.
Turns out taking the hamas series of events at face value won’t link up with reality down the line
And we needed to reach 2023 to realize terrorists can’t be trusted, heh.
And too many people where just too happy to jump to conclusions if that conclusion is allowing them to shit on Israel further.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen misinformation being gobbled up so willingly by so many before - the internet was just ready to condemn Israel for whatever they could get their hands on.
And as if one needed proof that Anti-Zionism is just a disguise for Anti-Semitism directly after that claim of Israel being responsible in Berlin people already started spraying Stards of David on houses that jews where living and threw a molotov at a synagogue.
how do you fit 800 people in this parking lot?
have you heard of multi level buildings?
I wonder why 800 people would huddle in one building that’s supposed to be off limits to bombs right now. Really boggles the mind yeah? /s
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So you see a multi level building there? You maybe should cut down on the mushrooms.
Here’s a source explaining what happened since I guess no one taught you keyboard ninjas how to do actual research.
Canon Richard Sewell, the dean of St George’s College in Jerusalem, told the BBC that about 1,000 displaced people were sheltering in the courtyard when it was hit, and about 600 patients and staff were inside the building.
There was, but then it got blown up by a rocket. I suggest the opposite: we all take more mushrooms.
I can see in that video, one of the cars got flipped upside down. Whatever detonated there had a significant blast.
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Once this is backed up by a reputable news source, I’ll believe it. It’s unfortunate but I can’t argue with facts if adequate evidence and vetting is presented. I still hate Israel with every fiber in my body. From the river to the sea.
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While I can’t take Hamas’ word at face value, I also can’t forget that many people who are not Israeli have a vested interest in spreading misinformation. Why did Israel change it’s story so many times immediately following? Can IDF not launch missiles from inside Gaza? The article mentions this ordinance has been used by Hamas before, when? How is Hamas able to smuggle missiles into Gaza, which has been described as a locked down prison with hundreds of checkpoints?
This is an incredible claim and I expect incredible proof.
My man, this current conflict started with Hamas launching ~2,500 missiles at Israel. Israel famously has the Iron Dome system to shoot down the missiles that have been coming from Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon for years. It is not at all an incredible claim that Hamas and other anti-Israel groups in Palestine have missiles; it’s well-proven fact. Here’s an info-graphic of the different types of missiles Hamas was known to have as of 2021.
The iron dome doesn’t extend into Gaza right? So it wasn’t a rocket interception?
Thanks friend, you’re a good fella. I understand the Iron Dome is a rocket defense system, there’s just a difference between missiles and rockets.
Not sure why you added “there’s just a difference between missiles and rockets”. There is a difference, but is not particularly relevant here. Many people mix up these terms anyway: the post you replied to mentions missiles but Hamas, as per linked graphic, probably only has rockets. It may matter to the iron dome system, as that relies on a predictable path of a rocket to decide what to target.
I added it because they are different. All news sources I saw said it was a missile that hit the hospital. It is reasonable to think that journalists will use the words that they mean. When a truck crashes into a building, I wouldn’t look at people who only have cars for the culprit.
Do you really think most journalists will know the difference, or think it matters?
Besides, guided munitions are frequently referred to as “rocket artillery” even by the military.
How is Hamas able to smuggle missiles into Gaza, which has been described as a locked down prison with hundreds of checkpoints?
my man, we literally saw them firing thousands of rockets into Israel, but this one is somehow unbelievable?
How is Hamas able to smuggle missiles into Gaza, which has been described as a locked down prison with hundreds of checkpoints?
there are huge tunnel systems under gaza…its quite crazy.
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incredible claim
Fuck the IDF and fuck Hamas but there isn’t anything incredible about it besides the fact that you don’t seem to like it
I have not seen Israel change it’s story, do you have a source for that
First they blamed Hamas. Then they posted a video from 2022. Then they posted a video with a wrong timestamp (even though it was live). There were probably more but these are what came to mind.
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I hate this breaking news armsrace because it is a breeding place for fake news, especially on social media platforms like the cesspool twitter.
I rely on two news stations a German one, mandatory founded by German citizens (so no investments and ideology from other sources needed) and Reuters. And if a news is on both and without the “not independently verified” label I believe and maybe share it.
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It’s wild to me how “jet fire can’t melt steel beams” persisted as a myth. Several engineering fields know that a material’s strength goes down at higher temperatures.
It’s indeed true: Jet fuel doesn’t melt steel beams, it just turns them into wet noodles.
The media companies LOVE it!!!
https://fair.org/home/trump-bad-for-america-good-for-cbs/
Man, who would have expected the ride we’re all having right now? This is pretty amazing…. Who would have thought that this circus would come to town? But, you know—it may not be good for America, but it’s damn good for CBS, that’s all I got to say. So what can I say? It’s—you know, the money’s rolling in, and this is fun.
While that is in regards to the orange piece of shit in America, it 100% applies to this news arms race as you call it.
They see the opportunity for money, who needs anything else once you’re first out the gate? Offer any contracts or don’t based on new evidence, it truly doesn’t matter once they get their clicks
It’s important to clarify who is making those claims. Often it’s some rando or someone with no credentials to be making the claim.
These are a few: https://twitter.com/MarkKersten/status/1714367614162702612, but they are saved all over if you don’t trust this random dude.
Do some more research. Check who that rando is. I debunked this tweet in like 20 seconds earlier in this thread
Who downvotes people for asking for sources, pathetic
Why did Israel change it’s story so many times immediately following?
Because their psyop instinct jumped the gun without double-checking whether they actually hit any target even in the rough vicinity. Imagine a bunch of neck-bearded shitposters in uniform salivating over their keyboards, then brass storming in saying “stop that it wasn’t us, this time”.
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To be fair, no one’s blaming “the Jews”. We’re blaming Israel, which is a very different thing.
More than that, the focus is on a Leader and administration that is opposed by the majority of Israeli people
Yes, Israel doesn’t necessarily mean all Israelis. It’s the government that’s fucked up.
within 24h hours after that explosion at the hospital in Berlin there were reported cases of people spraying stars of david on jew’s houses and an incident with a molotov being thrown at a synagogue.
The line between Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism is VERY thin for a lot of people…
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War crimes are not “defending itself”. There are literally Jews against Israel at this point. Wtf are you talking about? Israel is literally killing people, there’s no way you’re shifting this into the age old Jew hate debate. Hate crimes are happening, but it’s mostly Israel who’s doing them.
Israel lies. Hamas lies. No one apologizes for the Israeli lies either. You know what Palestinians don’t do… Run an apartheid state. Or turn Israel into an open air prison. Israel is the one here with the power to change the situation. Why don’t they?
It’s definitely tragic the attacks that happened. And our hearts go out to all of those families. Why didn’t any Israelis think about that over the years for the tens of thousands of Palestinians killed in their governments genocidal apartheid?
Israel is with the power to change the situation? Oh really? What could Israel could possibly do do have peace in the region? Besides going “okay we’re leaving bye have tel aviv and jerusalem” nothing could be done to stop the palestinian aggression. Nothing, and they proved that time and time again. Israel has nothing to do in the situation except prevent more attacks on it.
Eject Netanyahu and allies from the government. They’re partially responsible for hamas. Open up Palestine, focus a concerted effort on improving their material conditions and future prospects. People who believe they have equity in a system they perceive as fair and just. Typically don’t seek to destroy it or those they associate with it. Stop bulldozing their homes and stealing their land. Doesn’t matter who started it. It still doesn’t justify what the Israeli government has done.
Israel has everything to do with the situation. A blind hyperpartisan apologist like yourself just could never admit that.
Oh and what do you think would happen the second they open up Palestine? Would they get hugs and kisses or knives and mass raping? Let’s look at 7/10 as an example of what happens when Israelis don’t supervise entry to their country by Palestinians.
And as much as I hate it, Israel is a jewish state. Meaning it’ll never take in so many muslims endangering that jewish majority status - which is horrible. But on the other hand, neither would Palestinians agree to be part of Israel. Do you really think they’ll agree to just enter the state and live alongside existing Israelies? If so, then you live reaaaaaaly far away from that region to know anything about it. A nice resource is “the ask project” on youtube, just watch a couple of videos and see who Israel is facing against. They want nothing to do with Israel. They want their annihilation or exile.
Start looking at other media sites besides al jazira and see what’s really the problem there. Don’t believe neither side wants this war to happen, because noone does. It’s just that both sides are too stubborn (arguably Palestinians more) to do things for their own good.
Oh and what do you think would happen the second they open up Palestine? Would they get hugs and kisses or knives and mass raping?
Neither. That’s a strawman.
Let’s look at 7/10 as an example of what happens when Israelis don’t supervise entry to their country by Palestinians.
That’s a pointless thing to look at as long as you don’t address the underlying inequality and segregation Israel is imposing. Israel is only adding a second problem to address with the first problem that they created. Without doing away with both of them either one in isolation will not be adequate.
But on the other hand, neither would Palestinians agree to be part of Israel.
What’s your source for this? The fact that they won’t allow Palestinians to be part of Israel does not mean that Palestinians wouldn’t want to be. The problem is Israel won’t let them in the first place. If they even did the bare minimum of taking and screening families permitting them to leave Gaza and integrating them into society. This would be a whole different situation. The fact that they locked them down treating them like animals. Then act surprised when they get the retaliation they were looking for in return. Really seems disingenuous.
Start looking at other media sites besides al jazira
Oh cool another straw man. Do you actually have anything of value to say? Or are you just going to continue to try to debate dishonestly?
First, how is that a strawman? You said Israel should open up Palestine, I wrote why Israel shouldn’t. Either you’re speaking unknown terms I don’t understand or you don’t know what strawman argument means.
Secondly, I again advice you to look at more views of this conflict. “The ask project” is a good one asking Israelies and Palestinians questions about hotly debated topics. There you’ll find your answer as to what’ll happen when Israel opens Palestine. Palestinians don’t want to be part of Israel, they want Israel destroyed. You listening to left media is good and keeps you updated under one side of the conflict, but doesn’t reflect the will of the people living there and what happens practically.
The inequality and segregation by Israel is supposing Palestinians want to be integrated into Israel and don’t be allowed to. But the truth is that amongst peaceful Palestinians there are plenty of Iran and ISIS backed people who want to destroy the western world - and Israel to them seems like the frontline. So no, Israel should not stop their segregation, because that’s the only thing keeping them alive to this day.
Wtf is “open sourced intelligence”? Is it another name for “armchair internet sleuths”?
There is literally a definition in the article…
Open-Source Intelligence (OSINT) is defined as intelligence produced by collecting, evaluating and analysing publicly available information.
So like when Reddit found the Boston Bomber, gotcha.
I’ll take this with a grain of salt.
Not really, because even some news stations now access this public available data and checked it with their sources. Good example would be Bucha where those sources were used to verify the crimes that happend there. But yeah of course you always need a trustful source which uses this data.
Good starting point is to go to official news pages and avoid social media like twitter, Reddit or even lemmy until those news is proven.
Big fucking difference but sure if it’s not an individual hired directly by some govt it must be akin to a redditor!
Give me a fuckin break
Example of the power of OSINT: https://www.isdglobal.org/digital_dispatches/jan-6-series-how-osint-powered-the-largest-criminal-investigation-in-us-history/
Law enforcement also used geofence data (obtained via search warrant) and flight records to place her at the Capitol riot. Indeed, charging documents show that many of the January 6 defendants were identified by law enforcement using these triangulation methods — largely based on OSINT — to piece together proof that they were involved. The challenge of the reliability of OSINT data was able to be overcome through the large amount of digital evidence available.
Have you actually ready any of it yourself? Or are you just passing armchair judgement based solely on headlines?
Just because you don’t understand doesn’t mean it’s all bullshit.
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It’s genuine intel but needs to be verified thoroughly. I will believe it once it hits reputable news sources.
Which are? For example in Germany the Tagesschau is a quite reputable source and they are also using these OSINT sources to back the story up.
Reuters, NPR, NYT. I’m not going to deny facts, I would just like to be sure. Israel has enough war crimes for me to hate them over.
I find it interesting that this is being defended so vociferously, when so many people still needlessly died.
Well the first claims out by Hamas was 500+ dead and an Israeli airstrike.
Now we are learning it’s more like 20-50 dead, landed in the parking lot next to the hospital and was due to a failed Hamas/related groups rocket.
Yeah either way people died but the entire situation has greatly raised tension in the middle east. It could have been responsible for opening up another front of the war with Hezbollah.
Huh?
The quantity of innocent lives lost makes the correct identification of the culprit maximally important
No it doesn’t. The IDF will lie. Hamas will lie. Did it matter who blew up the Nordstream pipeline? At best, we’ll find out years from now, and, by then the world will have moved on, and it won’t matter.
Civilians died. It is critical to know how.
People aren’t a piece of infrastructure
Pretty sure it was a rocket/missile. I never said people were infrastructure.
Of course it was a projectile. That’s not in question. Knowing who launched it is the point.
You compared the investigation of Nordstream to this.
The standard and necessity is very different.
If Hamas launched it. Nothing changes. If the IDF did it. Nothing changes.
It absolutely matters, yeah people died but guess what, shit don’t end there.
If this is a verifiable attack from Israel it is a clear indicator a war crime and can be used to reduce support to Israel in this effort. Ya know what that could do? Reduce the number of people who will die
Just because someone died doesn’t mean it’s off limits to those that didn’t. What kind of brain dead take is that
No it doesn’t. Israel has committed war crimes leading up to this. Did the world stop that? How many lives did knowing that Israel committed war crimes save? Hamas committed war crimes. Did knowing that save lives? Did I mention that Israel is still committing war crimes? They bombed a school. They bomb the people fleeing. They shot people (including children) during a peaceful protest in 2018. Why didn’t the world care then? It’s that kind of brain dead take.
