ITT: americans circlejerking and thinking europe is a country and that the gypsy situation in for example portugal is the same as in bulgaria
We could extend it to Europeans talking about Africans, “Muslims” or anyone else. The picture would still be valid.
…okay, and how does that apply to the topic and the comment section about gypsies?
Curiously, the Romani came up when Congress was discussing the scope of the 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution of the United States. The argument was if birthright citizenship was universal, we’d have to give it to them.
At the time, sounder minds prevailed.
Nobody likes migratory cultures. But it also appears nobody likes cultures too different from their own. And once we start cutting out ones we think are too alien, we rapidly move towards cutting into those who worship on the wrong day.
If you want a culture to stop migrating, maybe facilitate their access to homes? I’ve yet to encounter a culture that doesn’t like comfort and convenience.
America has always had racism baked in at the state level (read on the appeasement of slave states, massive fundamental mistake). In modern day this manifests in strong internalized and institutional racism that affects everyone, hence why there’s so much discussion about it.
However, I think the USA is one of the better countries in terms of interpersonal racism. The diversity of the US means that nearly everyone interacts with multiple races/cultures on a daily basis. The country is steadily becoming more diverse (the USA will be flipped to a minority-majority by 2045) so there’s just no practical way to avoid it.
Contrast this with most other countries who don’t necessarily have foundational racism but have had a homogeneous identity nearly forever. For some, broad discussion on diversity and demographics is completely novel in the last few decades; there’s a hypersensitivity at the individual level that hasn’t adapted yet.
Anecdotally, I’ve seen some of the most shocking unacknowledged prejudice outside of the US (some EU and strongly in Asia). Like “This waiter is too brown” and “[Turks, Romani, Indians] aren’t real people” said in total earnest. I’m sure I could hear similar things in obscure parts of Northern Idaho, but I didn’t expect it in major cities in developed countries.
This is gonna cause some grump.
Both the EU and America have a race problem but I dunno from my perspective racism in Europe is so much more common and unchallenged. I think a lot of people have an inflated view of American racism cause they talk so often about it. I also don’t think the racism is the same, a lot of Europeans seem more racist about cultural differences than just skin color where Americans seem more skin deep racists.
I dunno just my opinion though.
I also think these parts of the world are the most culturally diverse so they talk about it but other parts of the world are SOOOO much more racist it isn’t even a comparison.
A friend of mine in South America was talking about it the other day. She was saying that while racism does exist where she lives, it’s treated and received with significantly less violence. She heard about racial tensions in America, and the crimes committed, and she was shocked. To her knowledge, that had never happened where she lives.
I don’t know enough about her local history to make any kind of argument, so I just let it go. But it did seem strange to me.
I read that as South Africa and I was like WTF
Americans tend to sensationalize anything so if someone says “I don’t like music about drug dealing and shooting people,” there is a good chunk of folks who would immediately say (unironically) that said person is racist against black people.
You’re not wrong. Americans have an obsession with skin colour and thinks that is what divides humanity. I remember a screenshot post of a black user asking, and to paraphrase: “remove poc’s what how would white people divide themselves?” The user is likely someone from North America and had never gone to Europe, or know its history, to see how divided Europeans are, even before the large immigration from outside the continent.
The western world by far contains the least racist cultures on the planet. At least presently. It’s just more visible especially to people in the western world
Europe when muslim immigrants
Super Space Hitler.jpg
I think that a nation can impose rules on how their culture relates to others. There is nothing wrong in a state that’s purpose is to presereve its culture’s majority, language and so on. The problem is not immigration itself, but the causes (neocolonialism).
The problem is that right-wing populists make a career on promising solving problem they caused themselves. The liberal multicultural utopia cant sustain itself, and doesnt have any long-term benefits to the humanity or a particular society.
There is nothing wrong in a state that’s purpose is to presereve its culture’s majority, language and so on.
I have to disagree with you entirely.
First off, persistent culture and language are both illusions. Culture of a region changes dramatically due to circumstances and progress even without the influence of immigration. Language not only changes across time but across regions. The American vernacular spoken in Atlanta is distinct from Chicago or Los Angeles, or Seattle.
Secondly, intrinsic non-mainstream and counter-culture groups are going to be marginalized, and as Dr. King observed there’s a pipeline from not worthy to be my neighbor to genocide. And history continuously bears this out. Culture includes the chattelization of women. It includes the criminalization of LGBT+. It includes the persecution of other religions, of other ministries of the same religion. It includes preserving commercial monopolies. Culture includes the preservation of sociopolitical hierarchies and dynastic power.
Culture is blood and soil.
In the US today, the culture war is over the genocide of immigrants and LGBT+ and the ultimately exclusion of everyone who is not MAGA and white Christian nationalist. It is about the genocide of everyone not part of the movement in the name of white supremacy. And ultimately MAGA will start cutting into its own. The fascists always do.
Give me diversity, equity and inclusion. Give me pluralistic liberal democracy that values human rights over property rights, that values rule of law. In that environment, the cultures will sort themselves out, and blend into regional variations unique to the area. We don’t need moral guardians trying to tell society what it should be.
And, then we can have Chicago-style pizza and New-York-style pizza.
We can have Methodism, Catholicism, Sunni Islam, Hindi, and Atheism in the same city. (And hundreds of other faiths, spiritual dispositions and identity communities.)
We can allow people to explore sexual and gender identity on their own terms, and find there’s even a letter for them in the alphabet.
We can have an economy that isn’t run by only a dozen conglomerate corporations selling us shoddy goods for fixed prices. Rather we can regulate the economy to serve the people, with robust competition and state-sponsored science.
We can have a society that is shaped by the will of the people, rather than the personal preferences of a handful of oligarchs.
No, culture has lost the plot, and no culture should be privileged in a society over any other. Whenever we allow it, xenophobia dominates, and genocide follows.
“We can have a society shaped by the will of the people rather than a handful of oligarchs”
We can(?), but we don’t and won’t. It’s like you and I live in a different world, I don’t have any idea where what you describe exists or when it existed.
Youre describing an American ideal that I’ve never seen. We’ve been xenophobic from 1776 onward. It’s like you have the generic G-rated version of America down, but not anything resembling the real America that I’ve lived in.
MLK for example; he is held to high esteem in USA today, but he accomplished little compared to, say, The Black Panthers, who armed themselves with shotguns and followed police on patrol. THAT is why the civil rights movement progressed. This is the will of the people in action. Every right we’ve gained has been in spite of our political system since at least the 1950s.
Any counter examples would be appreciated. But this is the America that I am from, this is what works
https://www.pushblack.us/news/60s-panthers-policed-police-legacy-continues-today
I assume that in your theoretical city of multiple religions, LGBT people have already been eliminated, right? Otherwise it’s not compatible with Islam, Christianity or Judaism at the very least and while the majority of Christians have had their beliefs washed down, Muslims are NOT going to take such bullshit and they WILL demand LGBT people to receive corporeal punishment at the very least, but ideally death penalty.
And why should they not be allowed? That’s part of their faith, their culture. We consider murder and stealing illegal and immoral - they feel about the same way about LGBT, alcohol and pork (in addition to murder and stealing, but of course murder of infidels is usually okay in most religions). Are we not supposed to respect their culture if they live with us?
There is nothing wrong
Says who? Why can there be nothing wrong? Why is 0.000000000000001% wrong too much for you? Why are you so intolerant of any potential moral question about the subject matter? Where do you derive this logic from? Why is it completely free from any amount of criticism? Zero criticism is allowed, according to “there is nothing wrong” logic. “Nothing” is doing a lot of work for that logic, and it demands that any amount of criticism should not be tolerated or entertained. It’s a major fallacy, in my opinion.
My uncle is a completely legal mexican immigrant. My aunt makes killer food. If he were to move to Europe, why is that unsustainable for them? The US was built on mass migration.Every immigration-related moral failure of the US wasn’t because it accepted immigrants, but because it rejected them. This is generation after generation here. Why is Europe incapable of solving it?
Maybe Europe is incapable of solving these issues. But if that’s true, then why is that acceptable to Europeans? If the problem is fundamental to the infrastructure of society itself, why should responsibility fall on immigrants to solve it rather than the society that calls itself liberal univeralist? You can’t just blame the right wing. It’s a societal issue as a whole if it just can’t work.
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As a European, this is very true. Anti-romani sentiment is very widespread and often overlooked when talking about xenophobia.
Idk, it more or less disappeared around here once they started allowing their children to go to school and get jobs once they grow up.
Turns out people care more about crime than skin color most of the time. I literally couldn’t tell you if there are any Romani living near me anymore because nobody has placed a curse on me after demanding money for a fortune telling I didn’t ask for and I haven’t heard of massive theft sprees in over a decade.
Another European, I encounter very little anti Romani sentiments in my daily life. There are travelers here and there are prejudices, but active hate is much more directed at refugees.
Generally their music is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the general opinion.
Generally their music is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the general opinion.
imagine saying that right after claiming there is little anti-romani racism
Yeah, because being upset that someone is blasting music until 4AM EVERY DAY is racist.
“I’m not racist, it’s just that their culture is garbage and everyone hates them”
Not OP but Gypsy music is generally considered positively not negatively I thought - I’m not sure why there is an assumption they’re saying their culture is garbage - I read it as the reverse
That’s what I meant
I don’t have an answer but, it’s not uncommon for a minority group’s music to be cherished and even coopted by the same people who hold racist sentiments toward them. It can be a bridge toward racial harmony too, no doubt. But as an American hearing someone say they like a minority group’s music and then nothing beyond that does feel sus and I’m sure the Europeans can guess why!
I feel like you might be reading “and then nothing beyond that”. I’m English, and I love to talk to other people about their cultures and backgrounds (and will happily talk to them about English folk customs and the differences between different British regions in return), but I find that, as a general rule, the only parts of someone else’s culture that they can easily share with you are food and music.
“but i like the caricature of the dancing g****, they seem so happy and carefree”
Hearing that “I am not racist…” opener is usually a signal that someone is about to share some absolutely unhinged point of view.
They didn’t say there is very little anti-romani racism, they said they didn’t encounter it in their daily life very often. That’s generally how it works, you don’t tend to run into racism as often when you’re not the target.
Quite right. I don’t run into a lot of anti-aboriginal racism in Australia, but boy howdy does it exist.
And I do run into some. Had an operation at a hospital once and shared a room post-op with a guy who was a cheery companion for a little while then started spewing the most ridiculous shit about First Nations people I’d heard outside a One Nation forum.
I then calmly asked him to explain every point and dissected his bullshit like a faeces expert studying a coprolite. Really bothered him. Hehehe.
Imagine the day Lemmy will be able to read a sentence correctly and not immediately rush to bad faith interpretations. Frankly this post made me lose hope to ever have an interesting discussion here.
There wouldn’t need to be a lifting of general opinion if there wasn’t a widespread negative opinion. Of a race. You know, like racism.
Ya dunce.
Learn to read before commenting. You’re just validating my take.
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???
I didn’t mean it that way. There’s a couple of famous musicians who really make the general consensus about travelers mainly positive.
Furthermore like I said there’s more many people that have verbalized something anti-zigian in my presence, and I’ve been here a while.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Romani_sentiment
Scroll to “contemporary antiziganism.”
I only said that I think generally in my country there isn’t a staunch common hatred against them. I didn’t deny that there is any.
People take my words to mean something completely different then I intended.
Sometimes I wonder how much hate is prevented or deferred by America’s identity as an immigrant nation and pride in that fact, compared to other western places like Europe.
We do still have “Illegals are coming to take your job” economic anxiety propaganda on the right.
Urban areas where people of different backgrounds live and work together tend to be less racist, rural homogeneous areas tend to be more so.
I’m American, but my grandma was a 1st generation immigrant. She always threatened to “sell [me] to the gypsies” if I didn’t behave. I didn’t have any idea what a “gypsy” was! There was no context for a 4 year old in the States. Hell, I didn’t even know it was a slur until I was in my twenties. That was pretty gross, Gram. Boomers gonna Boom, though, I guess.
……wait that’s a slur?
All labels are slurs now, except for the word “label”. I think that’s still okay (and do look at Wikipedia’s list of ethnic slurs, you say racist stuff every day without knowing!
"this word is Algongquin for ‘friend’
SLUR HOW DARE YOU
I won’t repeat the “Algongquin word for ‘friend’” because… you know. Because everything is stupid now
It is on Wikipedia’s “List of Ethnic Slurs” and I remember it suddenly being kind of a big deal out of nowhere in the mid 2010’s (not it being on the list, just in general on the corners of the internet I inhabited at the time). Like, my wife watched a lot of Kathleen Lights videos on YouTube at the time, and she had a sign in her background that said something like “gypsy soul” and she got backlash from her viewers.
I don’t know that anybody in my daily life even now, here in Metro Detroit, considers it one or uses it as one. I know I don’t use it anymore, really besides this comment chain. There are tons of immigrants from all over around here, I definitely don’t want to offend anyone. I will hear it from time to time, in a general way to refer to people who are or want to be kind of nomads. Like, a positive thing. Idk, I still don’t say it anymore.
I was 30 years old before I learned that word’s a slur
When i was little i though a “Zingaro” (gypsy) was someone poor or like someone who didn’t dress up well due to my mother saying stuff like “Don’t use X clothing like that, you look like a gypsy”
It’s not necessarily a slur, depending on who you are using it to refer to. There are some communities who refer to themselves that way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy,_Roma_and_Traveller
Same for me, but Germany. I thought, “Zigeuner” (Gypsy) meant that someone had no address because they would live in trailers and would move from place to place. Which sounded very cool and I wished, I could do that, too.
I did not understand, however, why one should not trust them.
Turns out, it’s just racism.
I encountered Romani a few times when I was living in Germany. It was not a positive impression. But even then I was well aware of how being historically marginalized breeds poverty and crime.
So ya don’t like dags?
I don’t know what that is, but it sounds like a slur. I don’t have any problem with Romani, only individuals who engage in antisocial behavior, same as anyone else.
‘sounds like a slur’
this used to be called a colloquialism or abbreviation for the sake of brevity back in the day.
Oh, dogs! Sure, I like dogs!
I remember my grandfather in the 90s warning me not to go to close to the “wagon” (a trailer) of “the gypsies” because they “steal children”. I actually wound up over there when I adventured out alone from the camping place. The woman was cutting her husband’s hair and it was the first time I had seen a man with pretty, long, shiny black hair, I was fascinated. They were friendly but “talked weird” (they had an accent). I never understood the hate… because obviously, they didn’t steal me away… but my grandfathers generation left that narrative behind for my parents and my generation to pick up and continue. I whish it could have died with him.
Every reddit euro sub in a nutshell
Some screenshots of (auto-translated) Reddit comments from r/Slovakia. I don’t know if usernames and profile pictures would count as doxing, so I removed them.
Holy shit. Positive karma and everything.
Must be nice to be Slovakian, I got banned from Reddit for hating on Joe Biden. I thought he was senile.
Meanwhile, he was senile
But so is Trump, but the media was afraid to call that out, since they didn’t want to lose interview opportunities with him.
But imagine the potential in “Dementia Don” and caricatures of him asking ChatGPT to generate him a clock during a dementia test.
Literally happened yesterday to me…
As an American of non-European descent living in the Netherlands, I’m amused at the blank stares I receive when I ask people about where they think the xenophobic, self-serving, and bigoted attitudes that pervade “White America” came from.
Ireland?
those dammed Irish
Americans really mad about euro calling them out huh.
I can’t speak to Europe, but contrasting the milquetoast euphemism “American racial tensions” against a picture of Hitler seems to be going really easy on the United States.
The point is to whitewash America’s racism, it’s okay because the Europeans also are a bit racist. Don’t try to compare how similar or different it is, that would destroy their take.
Idk, ask a European about Muslims and all of a sudden I’m talking to my grandparents.
Read the Koran, trust
or, listen to some Imams from today. Pick any Islamic State Imam and listen to them. It won’t take long
(they even speak English you can find their mosque videos on Youtube, pick one)
Ask an American about Obama and see how welcoming of Muslims they are. (Yes Obama is not Muslim, that’s the point)
Hashtagnotalleuropeans
“A bit” is an understatement. Europe is just as bad.
Yes and? That’s missing the point and falling directly into what the OP wants
Can’t let OP get away with pointing out racism
LMAO, there’s literally someone in this thread JAQing off trying to defend anti-Romani racism. Even on reddit, it usually takes longer for someone to start defending American racism.
European countries aren’t all the same
When it comes to general opinions of Romani/gypsies I think all European countries are pretty united.
Netherlands may be an outlier but nobody cares about Roma/Sinti/travellers/gypsies. Here people are racist against Maroccans, Turks and Muslims generally
cmon man, compare the percentage of gipsies in holland and romania/slovakia/hungary
I think Europe is at least united in a hatred for Muslims, can’t just let people exist in peace, y’know?
U.S. states aren’t all the same either
That’s why I said it
All you need to know about European racism is that Prince Andrew is the second least popular Royal ahead of the black lady.
Source ?
ITT: Europeans screaming into the black mirror.
